I've been giving more thought to the "Too many NAC splinters" dilemma
regarding developing my own group story line, and I came up with a different
solution than the CNP. But I need to find something out.
Just HOW Islamic IS the Islamic Federation?
The reason I asked is this - My father-in-law spent 3 years teaching in
Turkey. I've visited, and really enjoyed the place. I was wondering if it
would be plausible to have a planet somewhere inhabited by Turks, who did not
want to be part of the IF. Turkey very much does NOT consider itself Arab, and
many modern Turks will tell you, they're Turkish first, Muslim
second. Many (not ALL) revere Attaturk, are proud of their secular givernment
and attrempts to modernize Turkey, and desire closer ties with Europe than
with the Middle East. While this is not 100% true of all Turks, and there are
problems within the Turkish government, it might make for an interesting
group.
I was envisioning 1 system, with colonies on 1 planet and maybe the moon of a
Gas giant, as well as perhaps 1 major space station (Attaturk Station, of
course). The population would be mostly descendants of Turkish colonists, as
well as refugees from Turkey following the IF's conquest of Terran Turkey. The
place would be a big draw for secularists and dissidents from the IF, maybe it
would even be hospitable towards Jews, and be on friendly terms with NI.
Given Turkey's history, the powers it would probably be friendliest to would
be the NSL, NAC, and OU (by coincidence, my wife and I visited Turkey at the
same time as ANZAC Day. I saw as many flags with Southern Crosses on
them as Crescent Moons). They'd probably be cordial towards the FSL and
Romanov's, cautious but polite to the ESL, and outright hostile to the IF.
Military units would be of mixed origin - ships would probably be old
NSL and NAC designs, upgraded, with a few lighter ships of New Turkish origin.
Ground forces would be more home-grown. There'd be a deliberate attempt
to
avoid any design/tactical style that even REMOTELY resembled IF - the
resentment's probably that deep.
These would definitely NOT be Byzantines in Space, as someone out there
already runs. This would be a group SEPARATE from the IF, based on Modern
Turkish culture.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
> Just HOW Islamic IS the Islamic Federation?
138%, at least. If you're a citizen, it is legal but not very safe to be
anything less. (example: in Morocco 15 years ago, it was perfectly legal to be
a Christian. But there was a remarkably high incidence of bad brakes on steep
hillsides, flowerpots falling off balconies onto heads, etc.)
> The reason I asked is this - My father-in-law spent 3 years teaching
I'm under the impression that Turkiye is not part of the IF, although I don't
recall exactly why I have that impression. Maybe canon history mentions
Turkish mercs at some point after the formation of
The History webpage I was directed to indicates that Turkiye (thanks for the
spelling reminder) was absorped into the IF. If not, I don't recall it being
mentioned in either the FSE or any other regional power. In which
case, maybe I'll just take it *grin*.
But if my memory is correct, I'm sticking with a free colony somewhere.
Brian
"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."
- S. Freud
> From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
G'day,
Well if its any help either way I didn't include them in the population stuff
for the IF I did up for Laserlight.
Cheers
> Turkey very much does NOT consider itself Arab
Well, they're not Arabic, which may be a reason for that.
> course). The population would be mostly descendants of Turkish
I'm not sure the IF would be sufficiently motivated to conquer Turkiye in the
first place.
> Given Turkey's history, the powers it would probably be friendliest
Maybe not all that friendly to the Romanovs either. I'd think they'd be, at
worst, cautiously polite to the IF. (Almost everyone is hostile to the IF
anyway, it's not like we have a shortage of enemies for the IF to fight. The
exceptions are FSE and the IC, and how often do you hear the IC say
anything?).
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Depends on your interpretation--in my IFed, it's more
or less a felony to "blaspheme the Prophet" which holding any religion other
than Islam is tantamount to.
> I'm under the impression that Turkey is not part of
Yes, but Turkey is still part of the IF. IF mercenaries are in great demand
for the same reason Friendly mercenaries are in the Dorsai universe: They are
tenacious, willing to follow stupid orders, cheap, and not bright enough to
rebel. The issue of their military incompetence is secondary.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just HOW Islamic IS the Islamic Federation?
Yes. Very yes.
> The reason I asked is this - My father-in-law spent
No accounting for taste.
> I was wondering if it > would be plausible to have
Sure. It's where they sent all the "secularists" they couldn't purge.
> Turkey. The place would be a big draw for
Maybe even those Iranian Zoroastrians that noone's found a home for yet.
> the IF, maybe it would even be hospitable towards
That would be stretching it--Turks and Jews being
friendly is about as probable as the Caliph having a ham sandwich and lighting
a Christmas tree.
> Given Turkey's history, the powers it would probably
> same time as ANZAC Day. I saw as many flags with
They'd probably be cordial > towards the FSL and
> Romanov's, cautious but polite to the ESL, and
Well, the Canon FSE includes Greeks (mostly deported in my version of the
history) so the Turks won't get along with them. Ramanovs won't like them
(It's Balkan Slavs and Russians, both of whom hate Turks
with a passion--and the Balkan Slavs with good
reason). Don't know about OU or NAC (Brits have always had a wierd
relationship with the Turk) but if anything, they will have a close
relationship with the NSL if and only if it's profitable to the NSL (Ottomans
served as good German puppets in WWI because it was the only way the Germans
could influence the Middle East).
> These would definitely NOT be Byzantines in Space,
And in fact the Byzantines in Space will probably throw nukes in your general
direction under general principles.
> Laserlight Wrote:
> > Turkey very much does NOT consider itself Arab
True enough, the point is that Turks are often frustrated by how often they
have to point this fact out.
> > course). The population would be mostly descendants of Turkish
I'm just going with what I read in the GZG-pedia history. It states
that the IF DID take over Turkey.
> > Given Turkey's history, the powers it would probably be friendliest
Good point.
> I'd think they'd
That all depends on whether or not the history I read was right. If Anatolia
or all of Turkey were taken over, the refugees definitely would
have some beefs with the IF.
> I'm just going with what I read in the GZG-pedia history. It states
I'm not sure that that's canon, though.
> That all depends on whether or not the history I read was right. If
Not necessarily, since it depends on how the takeover was accomplished and
what's happened in the meantime. Even hostilities 100 years ago doesn't mean
they can't be allied today.
> John Atkinson wrote:
Good for my purposes so far....
> > The reason I asked is this - My father-in-law spent
Don't knock it. With the Turkish Lira taking a nosedive vs. the U$, we made
out like bandits in the souvenir department. The people were incredibly
friendly, and the food was good, especially their spicier dishes.
> > I was wondering if it > would be plausible to have
That was my thinking.
> > Turkey. The place would be a big draw for
Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.
> > the IF, maybe it would even be hospitable towards
Actually, in the Modern Turkish state, Jews don't have it so bad. My
Father-in-Law taught at one of the most prestigious, expensive schools
in Turkey, and had several Jewish students.
> Well, the Canon FSE includes Greeks (mostly deported
I didn't experct them to.
Ramanovs won't like them (It's
> Balkan Slavs and Russians, both of whom hate Turks
Good point.
> Don't know about OU or NAC (Brits have
The OU isn't Brit, and the relationship between Turkey and Oz/NZ is
helped by Attaturk's actions after Galipoli. The Antipodeans on the list can
correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, there was a great deal of bitterness
amongst them towards the cavalier manner in which England threw ANZAC lives
into that meatgrinder. After the war, Attaturk made sure the allied powers
dead were given full military honors. It's an interesting history, I'd suggest
reading about it from either a Turkish or ANZAC point of view if you can.
but if
> anything, they will have a close relationship with the
I'd add, only as long as it's profitable for the TR as well. The Sultan's
toadying up to the Germans was a main factor in the coup that put Attaturk
into power. The Turks won't be German patsies again.
> And in fact the Byzantines in Space will probably
Which gives me more incentive to run the Turks.
> Laserlight Wrote:
> > I'm just going with what I read in the GZG-pedia history. It states
Well, then, I'll need a canon ruling to make the final determination.
> > That all depends on whether or not the history I read was right. If
It does if the IF is still rabidly Islamic and the TR is still staunchly
secularist (As I intend it to be).
> >Not necessarily, since it depends on how the takeover was
It's hard to imagine Turkey being less Islamic than, say, France, yet the IF
and FSE get along quite well.
> Laserlight Wrote:
> > >Not necessarily, since it depends on how the takeover was
That's because France isn't Islamic. On the other hand, Turkey is
predominantly muslim, but they are firm in retaining a secular state. If the
IF is staunchly muslim enough to even remotely resemble a theocracy,
there would probably be hard feelings towards a group that refuses to mix
Mosque and State - just as in modern times, there ARE hard-line muslims
who have a real problem with Turkey, and there are manyu secularist Truks who
disdain much of the politics and even some customs of more conservative
muslims.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don't knock it.
I just have a hard time imagining Turks running any part of the universe well.
I've been to a part of the
world that lived under Turkish rule for 500+ years and
was NOT impressed.
> Actually, in the Modern Turkish state, Jews don't
Each to his own--my alternate history includes Turkey
purging the last non-Turkish elements by 2044.
> I didn't experct them to.
On the other hand, my alternate FSE has pretty much
deported/permitted emmigration for all the Greeks and
has transported French colonists to Greece.
> >And in fact the Byzantines in Space will probably
Well, on the plus side it would give me an excuse to make alliances of
convenience with the IFed.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm just going with what I read in the GZG-pedia
Well, I think the Canon is derived from the Full Thrust book:
"The House of Saud completes its suppression of its fellow Arab states and
creates The Islamic Federation
(IF)."
Which doesn't include Turks. However, it doesn't necessarily include Iran,
Pakistan, or Aghanistan either and they are generally assumed to be part of
IFed. I believe the only remaining major piece of Dar al'Islam outside of
Saudi control was Indonesia.
> John Atkinson wrote:
Correction. They lived under Ottoman rule. That's exactly why Attaturk and his
group rebelled against the Sultan. While Turkey's no Germany or Japan, it's a
lot better off than many parts of the world. Besides, given some of the story
lines in this 'verse, it's not too much of a stretch to have Turkiye
cointinuing to improve.
> > Actually, in the Modern Turkish state, Jews don't
I'm trying to stick at least partially to reality in my extrapolation. I'm
assuming that Turkey maintains it's secular attitude, and freedom actually
improves there. Although I've still to deal with the Kurdish question.
> > I didn't experct them to.
I just won't even touch that.
> > >And in fact the Byzantines in Space will probably
Why thank you, how considerate to consolidate all my enemies for me. It
would be interesting - A secular Turkish State, a Byzantine Theocracy,
and
an Islamic Theocracy. Makes for an interesting 3-way standoff, no?
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Well, I think the Canon is derived from the Full
In which case, I'll probably assume that Turkey still exists separate from the
canon states, and run it with a base country on earth. If it turns out that
they DID annex Turkey, I'll go with the
government-in-exile-in-space
tack. Either way, I'll be playing Turks as Turks.
> Why thank you, how considerate to consolidate all my enemies for me.
It
> would be interesting - A secular Turkish State, a Byzantine
The Sayeed Khalifate would be a theocracy. The Islamic Federation is a
Sultanate. The khalif is the religious head, the sultan is the military
"protector". It's somewhat analogous
to the Japanese shogunate--everyone revered the emperor but the shogun
was the one who can have your head on a spike. And the infighting between the
amirs is rather reminiscent of the fun and games in which
the daimyos participated--except the amirate is usually a little less
concerned about culture. All this is IMO, of course, there's nothing canon
about this yet.
And as far as standoffs go, you can always get enemies to work together if you
try hard enough. The AE declared a truce with the IF as soon as we figured out
the magnitude of the KV threat.
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> The Sayeed Khalifate would be a theocracy.
Question: The Sultan of the IFed: Does he have a puppet Kalif, does he combine
the offices in his person, or do they just do without? I understand the Sayeed
Kalifate has a Kaliph determined by Shi'a
rules, and the IFed is Sunni (and/or Wahabi or
whatever that wierdo varient that the House of Saud and OBL are).
Then if you put in a Secularist Turkish state things get really confusing.
Oh yeah, and we've got a completely non-Canon
Secularist Bedouin Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
You know who sounds like the most likely looser with the introduction of a TR?
The ESU. You've got all those Central Asian Turks being agitated by
Pan-Islamic demagouges from the IFed and now also by
Pan-Turkic Demagouges from the and/or inspired by the
Turkish Republic. Would make me really annoyed if I were a good Scientific
Socialist.
> And as far as standoffs go, you can always get
Maybe. But the NRE and the TurkRep will work together when Osman returns from
the dead to dance the Rhumba with the Basilissa Theodora's rotting corpse.
> Question: The Sultan of the IFed: Does he have a
yes
> rules, and the IFed is Sunni (and/or Wahabi or
As I understand it, Wahabi is a subset of Sunni.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Each to his own--my alternate history includes
Why? And if we're assuming a really massive tide of
fundamentalism and Pan-Islamism in that area of the
world (which is what it would take for the Arabs to set aside their difference
enough to accept the Saudis) are we able to be that cheerful?
I'm > assuming that Turkey maintains it's secular
> attitude, and freedom actually > improves there.
Although I've still to deal with > the Kurdish question.
I've been assuming the Kurds threw in with the IFed in exchange for an
autonomous Kurdistan...
> I just won't even touch that.
More than a few of my non-canon touches are not
particularly pleasant. Hell, I've got the Romanovs and NSL partitioning Poland
again.
> Why thank you, how considerate to consolidate all my
There's also the Saeed Kaliphate, which would consider the TR to be as much
heretics as the IFed, the Romanovs (who probably can't decide who they hate
more, the NRE or TR), and the ESU (which has large Turkic populations and
won't look favorably on a free nation of Turks that would inspire seperatist
movements).
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
OK.
> > rules, and the IFed is Sunni (and/or Wahabi or
And here's the kicker: Druze. Did they:
1) Migrate to New Israel?
2) Fight for and get autonomy in IFed?
3) Attempt No. 2 and get marched into death camps until they went underground?
4) Give up and go free-lance?
5) Buy an Alarishi Rock?
6) Decide that since the NRE doesn't turn down anyone willing to provide
recruits, emigrate to the Anatolikon? IMU[1] some did this, but not all.
> John Atkinson wrote:
In a word, because I want to play Turks.
> And if we're assuming a really massive tide of
I never said things would be easy for my Turks.
> I'm > assuming that Turkey maintains it's secular
Sounds plausible.
> > I just won't even touch that.
I wasn't accusing it of being unpleasant, just too damn target-rich in
terms
of snide French/Greek comments.
> > Why thank you, how considerate to consolidate all my
I'm going to have fuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnn.............
G'day,
> there was a great deal of bitterness
We respect the Turks (and often have joint memorials), but the Brit command
gets anything but respect for the mess it made.
Cheers
From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
> >It's hard to imagine Turkey being less Islamic than, say, France, yet
Turkey is Islamic the way that Mexico is Catholic.
From: <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au>
> We respect the Turks (and often have joint memorials), but the Brit
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In which case, I'll probably assume that Turkey
Good luck getting an official answer. There's a bunch of states that don't
seem to fit into any of the canon
powers--I seem to recall an extensive thread on the
Polish Question that Jon avoided like the plauge.
Thanks, that's what I'd heard.
Brian B2
"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."
- S. Freud
> From: Beth.Fulton@csiro.au
> From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au>
> > That's because France isn't Islamic. On the other hand, Turkey is
Precisely. Or the way that America is Christian, as I've often put it.
Which is exactly why I'm guessing there's rancor between my TR and the IF. Any
really conservatively Islamic group is bound to take issue with Turkish
secularism.
I don't need one. I'll just play Turks, and pick my friends/enemies,
and
if/when an official answer ever comes, I'll draw up a history to match
it.
Brian B2
"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."
- S. Freud
> From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
One Islamic group I've sort of tossed around ideas for is a Sufi or
Sufic-influenced state/nation/subgroup.
The Sufis are interesting - considerably more open-minded that the
Saudi/Taliban brand of Islam. I had a Sufi prof when I took Islamic
History a few years ago, and she was a very interesting person. (Yes, *she*.
One of the interesting things about Sufic Islam is that it's a whole lot less
hung up on the role of women than more mainstream Islam)
Sufi groups wouldn't enjoy a hardline Islamic Federation very much, so I
could see small colonies out there - AE rocks, perhaps. Ther's never
been Sufic Islamic government that I know of, but it could take up all the
best
elements of Islam, not the guns-and-beards conservative mess.
Something along the lines of the heights of Moorish Spain, or the best
(admitedly short) eras of the Turkish Caliphate - religious tolerance, a
remarkably open society, great respect for scholarship, etc.
It would be a nice change from everyone's 'Taliban in Space' Islamic groups,
anyway.
> It would be a nice change from everyone's 'Taliban in Space' Islamic
Well, the Islamic Federation isn't quite that bad. Smarter, for one thing,
although I grant you that's not a terribly demanding
In message <Pine.GSO.3.95.iB1.0.1011203151215.16092A-100000@vtn1>
> Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
> One Islamic group I've sort of tossed around ideas for is a Sufi or
> Brian Burger Wrote:
> One Islamic group I've sort of tossed around ideas for is a Sufi or
Actually, if you'll follow my Turkish thread, you'll find that's just the
kind of state I'm proposing. The Sufis will be well-represented within
the Turkish Republic.