Hello everybody! I am new to this discussion line. My companion, Tom Barclay,
suggested that I become involved, as I am interested in learning and playing
Star Grunt.
> Yeah, like the suggestions Tom. From my experience specialist
It is refreshing to see a suggestion to tone down modifications to the game.
All too often, modifictations seem to sky rocket out of control. Although I am
not completely versed in the game, I think that penalizing the sniper for
lacking a spotter is a good suggestion.
> This sounds okay; personally I'd arm the No2/Spotter with a SAW or
I concur with both Los and Tom's logic on this. The sniper team should be
attempting to avoid all contact outside of their respective target. The
spotter (and for that matter, the sniper) should only have to engage an
unexpected enemy at extremely close range, and only after detection. Otherwise
they should use their concealment skills to avoid such an encounter. As
already pointed out, the spotter is normally more burdened
than the sniper. Radio, optics, wire cutters even may weight him/her
down. A
carbine, such as the Canadian C-8, would be effective. I also agree with
Tom's suggestion that the spotter may need to be called upon as a backup
should the snipers weapon become damaged some how.
For anyone interested in persuing more information on tactic's, equipment
etc... for snipers, I recommend they travel to
www.specialoperations.com/sniper
This page contains the 1994 American Field Manual for military snipers, along
with descriptions of various sniping weapons and also several links to other
interesting sniper related pages.
> At 11:50 AM 15/07/98 +1000, Glover, Owen wrote:
> Hi all, this is what I like, more discussion.
Hmmm...As a new person in the Star Grunt world, I lack a substantial amount of
background knowledge of the game. On the matter of tech, it is easy to
speculate that such and such will be smaller, lighter, and more effective than
today's examples. It could be possible, that a sniper team need not even be in
the area when the shot is taken. A very small remote weapon (laser,projectile,
etc) could be emplaced, and the sniper simply take the shot through a computer
targeting system from a concealed hide miles away. Who knows. I guess it all
depends of the tech level of your world, or how much people wish to use
present day ideas of how ground combat is fought to continue into the future.
> If we are going to say that the No2 is carrying a scoped rifle then I'd
The use of two different weapon systems does make alot of sense. Should
conditions be less than ideal for one, then the other can be used. It is also
likely, that almost all future military weapons will have some type of optic
on them. Presently, several western armies have placed scopes on their weapons
as a standard piece of kit. Most are 3Xpower which actually do bring man sized
targets as far as 500m into a fair amount of clairity. I would imagine, future
sniper weapons could snipe far beyond the present day limitations placed upon
the sniper and his rifle. Appearently, Carlos
Hathcock had a confirmed hit at 2,500 yards with a M-2 50cal MG in
Veitnam. (No doubt, all those who are interested in sniping have heard of this
incredable deed and it's amazing authour) Such a shot was unimaginable for
it's time, but will it be so in 2180? Or will it be the standard range? YA NEZ
NIE YOU!
Hi list-mates,
Here is an SG2 idea based off of several discussions with people knowledgeable
(AFAIK) and with some reading and a few historical pictures.
Spotters for Snipers:
Raison D'etre: A sniper cannot be watching a target 200m+ away
through a high powered scope, trying to line up what could be a split
second firing opportunity, and monitoring his own area - or at least
he takes risks of a lousy shot or having someone sneak up on him if he does
so. Plus if he needs to fire repeatedly, it doesn't hurt to have someone else
spotting. Hence the use (historical and probably future too) of spotters to
accompany the sniper.
The sniper counter no longer just represents the sniper, it represents a
sniper and his spotter (as a hidden unit counter could represent a whole squad
of line troops). Whereas the sniper may be equipped with his long arm alone
for distance work, and maybe a
sidearm or machine-carbine for close in final defence, the spotter
may well carry either a close in assault weapon such as an
autoshotgun or the standard rifle/GL combinations most nations favor.
He will be armoured and equiped otherwise similar to the sniper
including a powerful set of binocs or a spotting scope - which can
probably see in more than just the visible spectrum. If the sniper is wearing
a ghillie or yowie suit, so will the spotter.
Advantages to having a Spotter:
A sniper who does not have a spotter should be easier to surprise with attacks
from out of his area of view. This can be represented in a scenario, by a
referee, or perhaps using some sort of stealthy
movement rules - he is so focused downrange, that he leaves himself
vulnerable. A sniper with a spotter does not face this danger.
Additionally, a spotter can spot for a sniper and this can include making a
seperate observe action to pick out a target or just calling
where the shots fired by the sniper hit, making multi-shot
engagements more devastating. Give snipers using spotters one positive shift
to their firepower when they are firing.
If the sniper is attacked, the spotter could choose to fight off the
assailants while the sniper continues to try to get his shot. If the
sniper did this without a spotter, he'd be an easy target (+1 shift
to attacking units fire attacks vs. the sniper who is trying to ignore them
and has no protection).
Further, the spotter can carry out a wounded sniper. Something that real folks
might think about (and if operating in hostile territory, can watch while the
sniper sleeps).
What do you think?
Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.sofkin.ca
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
[quoted original message omitted]
> Glover, Owen wrote:
> This sounds okay; personally I'd arm the No2/Spotter with a SAW or
Well while it's certainly a valid idea, (carrying the heavy firepower) the
primary role of the spotter is to Spot. If anything he may have even more
advanced optics than the sniper. A scoped assault rifle is a common spotter
weapon. (depends on the mission of course). I would think that a SAW might be
a bit much to hump. The spotter usually lugs the radio, a big pair of binos or
a spotter scope, and and his own ghillie suit (plus his normal kit). Me
personaly, I'd stick with an M4 (maybe a 203) preferring to remain light and
mobile.
Glover, spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Yeah, like the suggestions Tom. From my experience specialist Infantry
Precisely.
> May I suggest the modification to penalise the Sniper acting alone
My only defense of a positive shift is not changing the existing sniper. I too
like this better. I already think the sniper is quite a devastating figure...
so yes, this would be better.
> This sounds okay; personally I'd arm the No2/Spotter with a SAW or
Los makes a good point. Most of the time, you see sniper spotters armed with
either a normal rifle, a scoped rifle, or an assault carbine. The ultimate
thing for a sniper team is mobility, and SAWs
will eat up ammo fast and so the ammo and the SAW would weigh a lot -
and we all know that sucks if you have to carry it for the distances sniper
teams have to. And they often have to operate with stealth, which is hard when
fully kitted out. And if the spotter has a scoped
AR and they are sniping at 'usual' ranges (200-600m), it is possible
that if the sniper gets an IA and his weapon won't function, the spotter can
take the shot (I know guys who can hit a man sized target
75%-85% of the time at 500 m using iron sights on a standard
non-accurized 5.56 AR).
BTW, Some will argue that advanced scopes make spotting easier. I
don't deny this - the sniper is already way deadly! But two sets of
eyes will be better than one for the next thousand years I'd imagine (unless
we develop the ability to watch behind us too....). For both spotting, and
back covering, the spotter makes sense.
Tom.
[quoted original message omitted]
This all sounds good to me. In addition, as I understand it, on a team like
this, *both* troopers are qualified snipers, and they take turns acting as
spotter for each other. This is much less stressful than one always being
spotter and the other always being sniper. I don't know if this needs to be
modeled in the rules; it's just an FYI.
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:01:58 -0500 Thomas Barclay
> <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> writes:
Well, the distribution of sniper weapons is probably more a measure of
doctrine, but I think that really well-equipped militaries (NSL, FSE,
Dutch, Israeli) would possibly have 2 weapons. The more conventional troops
would probably have the No1 with a sniper weapon, and No2 with a
standard High-Tech Assault weapon with GL. The things work well, and
humping SAWs around will be a pain. The standard AR/GL can cover about
anything the Sniper Weapon cannot. And they're only a 2man unit -
they're not supposed to get into firefights. As far as the ESU is concerned
(that's who I play, mostly), they may not have much going for them in the way
of tech, but I usually set them up with greater numbers than their opponents
(1.2 or 1.3 to 1). I'm not sure about
the cammo cape - I see the cammo as a 'feel-good' kind of function - it
makes the troops feel better, whether or not it works. It's also a
multipurpose item, having heating and bedding functions. It keeps the rain
off. You can unfold it into a sleeping bag, or a small 1-person
shelter.
They can be made into stretchers, but not body bags - the other troops
would snatch 'em. But, I could see than having some game effect - maybe
a
little harder to spot if in cover, or at night - assming you're spoofing
thermal detectors. But they look pretty dashing and cool, and that's important
for morale. Jon & Co.: I've got some requests for the ESU 25mm line: How about
closed-helmet troops, troopers with a grenade launcher (new support
weapon), amybe some ESU Engineers/Pioneers (flamers, satchel charges,
etc),
ESU 6mm troops - *please!* I must have my proletariat hordes
represented on the DS2 field in good Socialist Realism! Another topic for
thought: How do we represent troops who do not all have helmet radios & all
the other neat gadgets? A few ideas come to mind: A
smaller cohesion distance (1" or 1/2"! between soldiers, maybe 4" or 5"
diameter group); more difficult commo tasks, or commo takes 2 activations;
dedicated radio troopers required, more chance of fratricide ('friendly'
fire - don't know how this would be modeled...). I was just thinking of
citizen/colonial militias, criminal elements, low-tech cops, etc. There
should be some difference. Any ideas, everybody?
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
> Glover, Owen wrote:
> OK, I'm trying to give the observations on Sniper teams relevance to
Well on the 203 front, if I was developing the universe (God do you hear me
here?) I would design a standard assault rifle with an over under caseless
round and then a 30mm grenade, somewhat like the M40 pulse rifle. I mean..why
not?
> are supposed to be equipped with? (The poor old ESU don't seem to have
I liked that book! Here's how I would kit the guys out. First thing our young
GI or Tommy puts on when he goes to the field is his undersuit. This is a
ultralightweight supra polypro envirosuit with thin capilary tubing and a
small circulator. Keeps you cool in hot climes and warm in chilly ones. The
suit covers his whole body. Next the guy dons his outersuit, water resistant,
breathable or air tight models available, fully NBC treated. he dons his
kevalr mod V armor nits which cover his wedding tackle, knees, elbows, chest
stomach, thigh pads, etc etc. The suit is a stealth or chameleon suit that
adopts the color of teh surrounding terrain. The suit
also dampens IR/UVsignatures.There's plenty of pockets to stuff all
those things soldiers lug around. So our Joe always looks a bit slovenly, but
that's OK we can give him a smart looking garrison kit.
His boots are lightweight warm/cold depending on climate and kevalr
plated.
For electronics he carries the mark IV med attachment to his suit. It mointors
vuitals in a small reader on his chest. A touch of the button can administer
morphine, antibiotics or adrenelin. (The mod IV has built in normal saline
inj. capability.)
His Mark V helmet has some electronics built in. Apart from his normal
ballistic visor, which is polarized to cut out glare, laser eye protection and
black out in the event of a nuclear blast. He can flip down either IR or light
amplification. He can display GPS as well as normal magnetic compass tape in
his HUD. The commo suite includes a two channel tactical radio with frequency
hopping and encryption. The Mark VI commmand helmet has a bit more computing
hardware in it, which gives the commander more HUD options as well as a secure
TACSAT link. (Note that secure Sat should be narrow beam LOS which means you
have to deploy and aim some kind of antenna. Maybe only a commo man can talk
to orbit. Don't want to much electronic signature going around. All helmets
have a secure IR (or whatever is hot in the future narrow beam xmisison mode
that is nearly un RDFable.) All helmets can recieve encrption fills remotely
(this has to be done frequently, every day at least). The helmet system also
interfaces to ethhand held datapad which has all kinds of other nifty
features.
Our soldier dons his web kit over his suit (they still have to hump like pack
mules in the future, all that light weight high speed stuff means that
they can carry more of it). The web kit contains an enviro-protected
integral camelback with a gallon of water. More can be carried in canteens,
these can be tubed right up to the mouth. He carries two days of concentrated
rations on his web kit. He carries a multi purpose
utility/combat knife, which CAN be mounted as a bayonet. (crowd
control), and a number of caseless ammo packs and grenades. Also mounted on
his web gear are his power packs for his envirosuit and electronics.
Of course he lugs a ruck, with extra ammo, sleeping gear/mini pop-up
enviro-tent (though issued these, they almost would never carry them.
That's for the mech weenies.) And a thermarest pad. the rest of the ruck is
more ammo food water, plus team stuff.
Anyway, that's it for now....tired.
> Of course he lugs a ruck, with extra ammo, sleeping gear/mini pop-up
That's
> for the mech weenies.) And a thermarest pad. the rest of the ruck is
Maybe for special forces or countries with more money than troops but even now
most soldiers get whatever happens to be availabel and affordable. And how
valuable the individual grunt is to the military compared to the value of his
gear.
"Well High-tech-Joe costs a million creds to kit out or we can get 100
of
low-tech-Joes in his place. hmmm... Quarter master order 100,000
LT-Joes
for home defense and frontal assoults please."
War sucks for the grunts no matter the age.
True but we're talking in the 2100s here, lots of that "hi tech stuff is dirt
cheap basic gear. heck even back in 1995 every grunt in the 82d had his own
night vision.
Los
> douglase@osabs01.inet.att.co.kr wrote:
> >Of course he lugs a ruck, with extra ammo, sleeping gear/mini pop-up
That's
> >for the mech weenies.) And a thermarest pad. the rest of the ruck is
And
> how valuable the individual grunt is to the military compared to the
That Chuk Guy
Glover, spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Hi all, this is what I like, more discussion.
Depends on your setting, the quality of your troop, etc. I'd still think that
(based on jamming tech keeping pace), you might need a breadloaf sized radio
for secure comms to orbit. (If no such EW environment exists, then sure you
could get away with your satlink throat mike). But the point is the No 2 still
has to hump gear. Even if its just his kit.
> If we are going to say that the No2 is carrying a scoped rifle then
I could agree, especially if you are playing in a milieu like Traveller where
Reflec armour stops lasers dead but doesn't dent gauss guns a whit and cloth
will stop a gauss gun but lasers penetrate it with ease. So it might well be
useful to have this split of armament. That way if the target is defended
against No 1 (sniper), then No 2 (the spotter) takes the sniper roll and No 1
spots for him.
> Anyone else thought about the Camoflage Cape that the ESU naval
Or the Phototrophic Camouflage from the Sten Series by Chris Bunch and Alan
Cole. It might allow you extra 'hiding' bonuses while IP or in cover. Another
range shift perhaps because you are hard to see? Presumably void while moving.
Make a good Ghillie suit for snipers. I'll have to try that out.
Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.sofkin.ca
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/