No doubt about it, FT has some serious advantages over DS2 and SG2 for
teaching / demo purposes.
FT is easy to learn, easy to teach, and easy to play. SG takes longer to learn
and is harder to teach, but once learned is relatively quick to play.
FT is clearly an SF game when you put those spaceship models on the table. SG
troops may look all too much like Vietnam, Desert Storm, or Bosnia.
FT is a lot like its competitors; it's about the clash of hardware closely
controlled by the players. SG is a lot about the challenges of controlling
troops who have strong survival instincts, are fallible, and a bit lazy, too.
Quite frankly, I think the morale system is one of the biggest differences in
SG2 and it sets it apart from FT as well as from the competition.
That said, lots of players want to play SF games so they can run slavering
aliens, implacable aliens, remorseless hordes of bugs, and other outre forces.
In FT, you can make your ships be flown by whatever aliens you want, and the
psychology of it is all played out in your head. SG2 and DS2, so far, only
offer players a chance to have neat zappers and bombs, but no
strange opponents (rules-wise; there's always strange gamers out there).
With the emphasis on morale and psychology rules, you really need alien
psychology and morale rules to make an enemy force which is truly alien, and
there aren't many of those.
I think Bugs Don't Surf or the scenario book could do a lot to bring true SF
elements into SG2 and DS2, and make the game more appealing.
You could try my FMA enhancement for DS2:
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ds2/ds2fma.html
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ds2/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
I have a pretty good cheat sheet for DSII, I could post you a hard copy if
your like. Or others who are intrested. Hit me up off the list and we can sort
things out. I'm a DSII fanatic and I'd be happy to offer any help if I can. On
the SGII side I'm still working on getting my head around that one.
devans@uneb.edu on 01/25/2000 10:21:35 AM
Please respond to gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
cc: (bcc: Aron Clark/AM/Avid)
Subject: Re: An apology for the unwashed Re: Heard at The Local Game
Store...
***
With SGII, we kept having to stop play to look something up in the rulebook.
It just slowed things down too much for us to really enjoy it.
***
Well, I can an accept that as part of the learning I mentioned before, but I
actually have trouble getting my mind around the steps in playing either game,
and where I have to look when I'm working out a procedure.
In demoes, the game master kept telling me what to do, but I never really
understood why.
Can I feel any dumber?
The_Beast
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Tom.McCarthy wrote:
> No doubt about it, FT has some serious advantages over DS2 and SG2 for
I've taught a number of people SG2, and all of them have gotten the idea
fairly quickly. They all even still talk to me...
First Rule: DON'T sit down and explain _everything_ before the game
starts. Surefire way to put your new victim to sleep.
I start by setting up the troops, with a quick blurb about each squad and
a basic rundown of the quality/leadership chits. eg "This is a squad of
militia. There's a lot of them, their officer is decent but they're not good
troops and their equipment isn't the best." "This is an SAS PA squad. Just
stay out of their way, OK?":>
After a turn or two of just moving - during which you can float the
'combat move' system - you'll be into some shooting, probably at range.
Introduce range bands, Firepower, etc, then run through the casualty &
suppression rules AS THEY HAPPEN ON THE TABLE, or just before you think
they're going to happen.
> FT is clearly an SF game when you put those spaceship models on the
This is one reason why I like walkers, 'gears & mechs - despite the
goofiness of them in 'real life', a plt of Size 1 inf. walkers on the table
screams 'SF' better than any number of regular AFVs, even if they are grav or
hover...
> FT is a lot like its competitors; it's about the clash of hardware
True - that's why when teaching SG2, I don't start with the combat &
weaponry rules, but with the quality/leadership/morale rules.
> That said, lots of players want to play SF games so they can run
BDS is the GZG product I've been waiting for for far too long... you
vacumnheads have a shiny new Fleet Book and a second one coming, but us
poor groundpounders are _still_ waiting on BDS!
An Alien race or three will make SG2 much more appealing to a certain type of
SF gamer who doesn't think something's SF unless the table is covered
in multi-legged and/or tentacled horrors of some sort...
G'day guys,
> BDS is the GZG product I've been waiting for for far too long... you
Yes mentioning the possibility of future alien supplements in the original
rulebook is a bit of a two edged sword...;)
> An Alien race or three will make SG2 much more appealing to a certain
I must admit I suffer from that, mainly because I don't like playing
'modern' and sci-fi feels awful modern for me. Thus I didn't play DS or
SG until very recently when I got my aliens going. The saving grace being, I
feel, that SG/DS needs very little modification to allow for aliens of
very
different natures (and not just the 'guys in rubber/tin suits' kind).
Cheers
Beth
Don't blame me for the paucity of SG2 material. I'm one of minority who'd
rather see Jon 'contract out' the writing of BDS, FMA and FB than wait for
them. And I submitted at least one SG2 idea to the forthcoming scenario book.
One of my misconceptions is that Jon has these ideas, but hasn't written them
down. I'm starting to think he has some unpolished notions, which need to be
polished, playtested and then written down. There's so much work to be done,
it's all going to happen slowly.
> Don't blame me for the paucity of SG2 material. I'm one of minority
Something I thought about recently (the contracting out of BDS especially).
However the more I thought, the more I thought it would be a logistical and
moral nightmare for Jon - essentially the person who wrote BDS would
have to be paid for the effort, rather than Jon getting the profits and
putting them back into the business.
JS
---
> J Sadler wrote:
> >Don't blame me for the paucity of SG2 material. I'm one of minority
Jeremy, I'm not sure where I come down on this argument; I haven't and
probably won't take the time to examine the difference between the profit
potential of both methods. However, how does contracting out the work create
"a logistical and moral nightmare"? Isn't this how 99% of all publishers run
their business? It's not like the suggestion is far fetched and pushing GZG
into unexplored territory.
-Mike
> I'm not sure where I come down on this argument; I haven't and
I dare say my words were stronger than I meant...
... Everything on this list is, as I understand, taken "carte blanche" to be
the property of GZG. Jon may take these ideas etc and put them into GZG
products, credit the author, and make money himself - though having some
experience in publishing (I publish a magazine) I know that actually paying
yourself can come near last in the small end of the business.
Now, depending upon where BDS is right now, Jon would have to hand over his
notes/ideas etc to another author to put them together and possibly put
their own interpretation upon it.
Jon and this author would have to come to some sort of arrangement, based upon
effort, time, foreseen profit etc. Given that the author would (probably) be
someone involved in the GZG world (and probably this list) they would have a
want to help out as much as possible for little payment.
As I write this, I realise that I'm not sure what the hell I'm talking about.
:)
I guess my point in the end is that as a substantial amount of effort would be
on the part of the author of BDS, this person would expect a substantial part
of the reward. Thus, GZG (and Jon) would see a lot less of this same reward.
Thus incentive for Jon to contract out such work would be very
low -
because he needs every cent he can get.
Now, to untangle my thoughts enough so that I can face tomorrow!:)
Please forgive me, it's late.:)
JS
PS If it did come down to it, I'd gladly offer my assistance to get BDS up and
going...:)