2002: China Invades Taiwan while encouraging North Korea to invade the South.
Meanwhile, a new round of violence in Yugoslavia flares up and Libya and Egypt
go to war. Soon, these conflicts pull in other powers, and a Third World War
results. It lasts until 2008 and is only ended by the mutual exhaustion of the
combatants.
2010: France moves troops into Belgium and the two nations unify under the
Treaty of Nancy. However, the Wallonian population doesn't greet this very
happily. They riot, and the French CRS overreacts. This soon sparks a nasty
insurgency on the part of the newly formed ALW( Alliance de Liberte Waloon).
2011: The first of the large superstates form, with the founding of the
Pan-African Union from the ashes of the OAU. 16 Sub-Saharan African
nations form the new state, with it's capital in Pretoria. Other examples are:
The Mediterranian Federation in 2013 (Spain, Portugal and Moracco), the
Central European Union (Poland, The Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia
and Austria) in 2016, the Slavic Confederation (Bulgaria, Serbia and
Montenagro, in 2017, with Bosnia and Macedonia forcebly added in 2019), the
Scandanavian Federation (Dennmark, Norway, Sweeden, Finland) in 2021, the
United Arab Republic (Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, the
United Arab Emeriates, Bahrain, Libya and Algeria) in 2022, the Pan Asian
League (Vietnam, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philipines, Korea, Laos, Cambodia and
Thailand) in 2024 and finally, in 2027, the Ocieanic Union (Australia, New
Zealand, Paupua New Guinea, and several Micronesian states). All of these
states form
to pool scarce post-war resources and to fend off stronger powers.
2014: Qubec votes for independence, and Canada evaporates overnight, with the
Maratime Provinces joining the US, Newfoundland rejoining the UK, Ontario
calling itself "Canada" and BC, Alberta, Manitoba and the Yukon forming a
"Northwest Alliance".
2016: The Indian government collapses under the strain of post-war
recovery and religous strife. Soon, India is dominated by sucessor states who
constantly war against each other.
2017: Indonesia invades Brunei.
2020: Pro-Argentinian coup in Uraguay, the new government announces
union with Argentina. Brazil threatens war, but backs down.
2021: Albucairre FTL principle discovered by joint JPL/Royal Society
project team.
2022: First FTL probe leaves for Alpha Centauri, it finds a system of 6
planest with a habitable planet and moon. The planet is named Roanoke and the
moon, New Plymouth.
2024: Indonesia invades New Guinea with the support of several thousand
Chinese "voulenteers". Three months later, Indonesia attacks the PAL in
Malaysia. The war soon takes on the pattern of an undending
low-intensity
conflict.
2025-2086: First Colonization Wave, or the "colony race" as it is soon
called begins, as nations race each other in a mad scramble for
extra-solar
real estate. Some third world nations, barely able to feed their people,
engage in this costly race for little more than prestige. Many colonies
survive by the barest of threads, but by the end of the first wave, the human
sphere is 40ly wide.
2042: Boer insurgency begins in the PAU between local government and whites
who remain in the former nation of South Africa. It soon becomes one of the
nastiest civil wars around.
2073-2076: First Franco-German war is sparked over colony worlds and
mineral rights on the disputed world of Neu Bayern (or, to quote the French,
Nouveau Lorraine). The war kills millions, mostly colonists and it's only
tangible result is it's peace treaty, the Treaty of Nuevo San Paulo, which,
other than ending the conflict, establishes the interstellar legal precedent
of "first come, first serve".
2077: The Boer insurgency ends with peace talks in Geneva. As part of the
settlement, the Boers are transported at PAU expense, to 6 close togther
marginal colony worlds, leased a set of barely functioning starshios and
granted immediate independence as the Voortrekker Star Republic.
2081: Israeli and UAR fleets clash in the Chi Draconis system, the conflict
doesn't spread to earth, but it becomes a series of nasty, brutish and
indecisive fleet battles, colony raids and occasional invasions. The conflict
continiues today.
2088-2120: The second colonization wave, or the "deportee's wave".
Noting the PAU's solution to the Boer "problem", many nations resort to the
use of forced colonization, with immediate independance for the colony in
question.
Thus, we see the birth of extra-solar nations such as the Basque Solar
League (2097) and the Kurdish Star Caliphate (2108) among others, as nations
soon see deportation as a handy way to deal with a lot of societal ills.
2091-2114: The "colonial troubles", many nations, especially those of
Third World nations, become barely teneable due to lack of support from home,
coupled with neo-mercantilist policies instituted by some Earth
governments. These colonies, feeling pushed to the wall, rebel. Some colonies
suceed, some do not. Many of the new "deportee nations" lend what little arms
and expertise they can, for a price, thus giving rise to the first mercernary
units.
2105-2109: War breaks out between an alliance of Chile, Paraguay and
Bolivia against Argentina. Inexplicably, the alliance loses. Brazil fails to
intervene due to a nasty Argentine-funded insurgency in the Amazon that
lasts until 2108. The three losing nations are forcibly added to Argentina.
2110: Britain and Argentina come to blows over the the colony of New Stanley,
or as the Argentines refer to it, Nuevo Malvinas in the Zeta Reticuli system.
It soon becomes yet another "Colonial War".
2113: Columbia, with FARC in control of 2/3rds of the country, now
petitions to join Argentina, and is quickly accepted.
2114: Peru and Venezuela are conqured by Argentine forces within a year.
Brazil again fails to act, due to a severe recession. Later that year,
Suriname and Guyana join Argentina.
2115: All of the Central American nations petition a reluctant Mexico to
become part of Mexico, Mexico, with the US and Britain footing the bill,
annexes these nations the next year.
2117: A large supply of Tantalum, the material needed for the Albuciarre
Drive, is found off of Mexico's east coast within her territorial waters,
Mexico soon becomes a First-Tier economic power overnight, and an
important US ally, with 30% of Mexican tantalum going into US drive cores.
2118: China and Russia go to war over Novy Svedlodsk or New Sianking as the
Chinese refer to it. Again, the conflict becomes another example of a
"colonial war".
2123-2130: First Japanese-American War breaks out both on earth and
off-world, the conflict kills millions and while the US "wins", she
loses the cities of San Diego and Seattle to Astaroid bombardment, with Nagoya
and Kyoto in Japan sharing their fate.
2134-2139: Second Franco-German War breaks out, it kills a billion
people this time, and other than the ownership of a few colonies changing
hands, the war settles nothing.
2137-2157: The PAU invades the Voortrekker Republic world or New
Traansvaal,
after the report of a major tantalum find on-planet by a French megacorp
that "dwarfs Veracruz". The PAU's occupation lasts 20 years and is marked by a
very nasty insurgency. The war finally ends with the help of Freisland mercs
and French "advisers".
2152: Second Japanese-American war begins over alleged Japanese
harassment of US merchant shipping. The war soon takes on the nature of a
typical "Colonial War".
2160: Iranian backed coup attempt in the UAR capital of Cairo kills the UAR
president and most of his cabinet, as well as most of the coup plotters in
the process. The few that remain flee off-world, and the UAR degenrates
into chaos. Most UAR colonies slide into anarchy, with loyalist and rebel
killing each other without abandon. Israel takes shameless advantage of the
situation.
2171: A UN sponsored peacekeeping mission on the UAR colony world of New Adan
soon becomes just another faction, and soon, the various national contingents
turn on each other. By 2175, the peacekeepers are pulled out and UN hired
mercs are sent in, who sucessfully impose some kind of order on the troubled
world.
2174: Extra-solar Religous strife breaks out between UAR rebels and one
of the Indian states after the rebels butcher an entire Hindu colony sponsored
by an Indian megacorp.
2175: The French survey ship, Cousteau, disappears in the disputed Rubis
system, The French immediately blame Germany and go to war, with the fighting
lasting a year until...
2176: The Angorki burst across all along the entire anti-spinward
frontier
of human space, driving all before them. An honor-bound warrior race,
they have a slight tech advantage over humanity, but they have a huge
advantage in surprise and they are fanatical in their devotion to winning the
war.
2177: The Angorki have driven to within 40ly of Earth, and while Human fleets
have won battles, they have yet to stop the "gorks" because of constant human
infighting. However some minor human counterattacks manage to stimie the
"gorks".
2179: The Angorki send a major raiding force towards Earth in a bid to win
the war once and for all. A multi-national force, under the command of
Admiral John Gurtz manages to inflict a crushing defeat in the Alpha Centauri
campaign. By years end, the Angorki are being driven back.
2183: The present: Humanity has retaken much of the territory lost to the
Angorki and have closed the tech advantage. The trouble is, now that Humanity
is no longer at the brink, many of the old hatreds have returned.
Nifty, however...
> On 17-Feb-00 at 08:01, Jason Weiser (atlas7d@earthlink.net) wrote:
I don't think I would name a potential colony world Roanoke.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jason Weiser" <atlas7d@earthlink.net>
2014: Qubec votes for independence, and Canada evaporates overnight, with the
Maratime Provinces joining the US, Newfoundland rejoining the UK, Ontario
calling itself "Canada" and BC, Alberta, Manitoba and the Yukon forming a
"Northwest Alliance".
This happens in my VERY different timeline too, or something similar. However,
Nova Scotia and Newfoundland actually join with Scotland, Ireland, and Wales
in the Celtic Confederation, B.C. joins large sections of Oregon, Washington,
and Northern California in the nation of Cascadia, and the Yukon, Central
Provinces, the US Plains States and the Southwest are returned to Native
Peoples.
> This happens in my VERY different timeline too, or something similar.
Fine up to here
> Yukon, Central Provinces, the US Plains States and the Southwest are
^This is ridiculous^ I just thought I'd stop lurking for a while because,
quite frankly, I've read some far out sci-fi future history timelines
before, but the above takes the cake. If your going to write a timeline
atleast have it make sense. I life in the US Plains states, and lived in the
Southwest for several years, and the ratio of red-neck idiots to Native
Peoples is about 300 to 1 in the former, and the ratio of Hispanics to Native
People in the latter is probably about the same. I can believe the US
colapsing do to market forces or something, war, governmental misshandling,
but returned to the Native People, that's just ridiculous. I don't know about
the situation in the Central Provinces or the Yukon, but I can tell
you that Red-Necks love two things, cross eyed retared babies and their
homes. The Hispanics love two things, the Catholic Church, and their homes. If
someone came up with a plan to 'return the US Plains States and the Southwest
to their owners' they'd have come through a long line of people who quite
frankly wouldn't let them. That's like saying lets just give Israel back to
it's neighbors, with out any one bothering to think "hmm, wonder what the
Israelis will tell us to do with this idea".
I stand QUITE corrected. I suppose I'll have to go revamp the whole thing.
Shall I run it by you for approval next time?
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Conchart@geotec.net" <conchart@geotec.net>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate history[Here's my Timeline](long)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:01:58 -0600
^This is ridiculous^ I just thought I'd stop lurking for a while because,
quite frankly, I've read some far out sci-fi future history timelines
before, but the above takes the cake. If your going to write a timeline
atleast have it make sense. I life in the US Plains states, and lived in the
Southwest for several years, and the ratio of red-neck idiots to Native
Peoples is about 300 to 1 in the former, and the ratio of Hispanics to Native
People in the latter is probably about the same. I can believe the US
colapsing do to market forces or something, war, governmental misshandling,
but returned to the Native People, that's just ridiculous. I don't know about
the situation in the Central Provinces or the Yukon, but I can tell
you that Red-Necks love two things, cross eyed retared babies and their
homes. The Hispanics love two things, the Catholic Church, and their homes. If
someone came up with a plan to 'return the US Plains States and the Southwest
to their owners' they'd have come through a long line of people who quite
frankly wouldn't let them. That's like saying lets just give Israel back to
it's neighbors, with out any one bothering to think "hmm, wonder what the
Israelis will tell us to do with this idea".
> Conchart@geotec.net wrote:
> > Yukon, Central Provinces, the US Plains States and the Southwest are
Jade,
I must agree that this is science-fiction, not fantasy!
Not stopping to consider that every man, woman, and child in Isreal has a gun
and knows how to use it, would mess up the timeline
that was presented. Same thing with the USA, a million man army
of occupation would cease to exist in about two weeks.
Bye for now,
Since my post and the criticism of it have engendered responses from others
now, I suppose I should speak up for myself as well.
First of all, let me preface this by reminding them that even though this is
not "Fantasy" as they call it, it IS FICTION.... and fiction has to do with
events we MAKE UP.
As to the impossibility of my timeline, let's remember a couple of things....
this doesn't all happen Next Tuesday. A lot of my timeline depends on certain
events happening over a very long course of time. Things change over time.
Demographics, geography, all sorts of changes happen.
Secondly, I must admit I worded my post poorly. By given back to the Indians,
I never meant to imply that it was at the cost of displacing others. In fact,
the very objection made was taken into account by me. I admit you could not
know this just from a cursory glance at my post, but on the other hand, NO ONE
EVER ASKED.... if they had raised their objections more graciously, I might
have beenm willing to present them with a more detailed timeline that actually
justifies events as I present them.
But opinions are personal property, and everyone has a right to one. What I
most strongly object to is the fact that now it seems others are
misunderstanding what *I* actually said in the first place, since it never
mentioned a "Million man army of occupation." Go ahead and criticize me for
what I've said,m but not for what I haven't.
Brian B
----Original Message Follows----
From: John Leary <john_t_leary@pronetusa.net>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: Alternate history[Here's my Timeline](long)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:08:32 -0800
Jade,
I must agree that this is science-fiction, not fantasy!
Not stopping to consider that every man, woman, and child in Isreal has a gun
and knows how to use it, would mess up the timeline
that was presented. Same thing with the USA, a million man army
of occupation would cease to exist in about two weeks.
Bye for now, John L.
I'm really sorry if I cam across as if I was attacking you. I am, at the
moment and then, on very heavy pain medication. The time line just hit a
discordant note, and I felt the need to comment. Probably not the best time
for me to be expressing opinions. I admit that I did not ask you how the
events came about before commenting. Hope that settles things.
Jade Tseng
[quoted original message omitted]
No, matters are not settled until I accept your apology and express my sincere
hope that whatever caused you to be on pain medication heals quickly. Now
they're settled.
Brian B
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Conchart@geotec.net" <conchart@geotec.net>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alternate history[Here's my Timeline](long)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:58:34 -0600
I'm really sorry if I cam across as if I was attacking you. I am, at the
moment and then, on very heavy pain medication. The time line just hit a
discordant note, and I felt the need to comment. Probably not the best time
for me to be expressing opinions. I admit that I did not ask you how the
events came about before commenting. Hope that settles things.
> No, matters are not settled until I accept your apology and
Drat, and I was hoping for a duel, maybe two Islamic Federation
faction fleets squaring off--Oerjan can testify that combination
produces a high casualty rate.
Meanwhile, I'd have to say that I was not on narcotics, and I too didn't think
it was plausible for the Native Americans to control a significant portion of
the US other than the reservations. I wouldn't want a full explanation on the
list's bandwidth, but if you're going to post something that unlikely, you
might mention that you recognize it's unlikely but you have a good
explanation. I know, I know, you gave your web site, and I didn't read your
post closely.
While not directly connected, the fact that we're discussing Alternate
American History makes this seems like a good time to repeat a (paraphrased)
rant from John Atkinson:
There Are Others Out There.
The world, when last seen, is not limited to Anglo/Americans,
the NAC is not the only Major Power from which your Hardy Band of Rebels can
break away, and we don't need a reprise of Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the
American Revolution, or even the War Between the States (which Yankees and
others sometimes refer to as the American Civil War). We need to hear how the
Tamils got their own planet, or the revolt of the Hindus on Kshatriya against
the ESU government and how they manage without brahmins (or how they get them
to make the voyage to the planet), or the relations between the various sects
and tribes on the PAU's Sahel, or how the Finns of Sisu get along with the
Johnny-come-lately Micronesian and Spanish settlers.
No, I didn't post my website, I don't have one. Actually in my little reality
(Ain't gaming great?), the indians regained not all but sizeable
chunks of the old west simply because it reached a point where no one else
really wanted it any more, most of them were busy reaching for the stars. Not
nearly as romantic as I first made it sound. Granted, there will probably be a
Seminole planet, a coupl of other colonies. But for the most part, the Indians
would take advantage of the exodus of others to reclaim land to which they
have deep spiritual ties.
As for the other little guys, I actually put thought into that. One thing that
struck me was that, as you race for colonization, two distinct types of
countries will be at an odd disadvantage. First off, the third world coutries
with little technology. They just can't get to the stars.. The
other will be highly advanced countries with small populations. They can GET
there, they just don't have enough people to PUT there. So mutualist alliances
will arise between these nations. A bonus for the first world
powers will be more places to put launch facilities near the equator.
This means that you'll find usually in my privateverse that established worlds
will have orifginated with two colonies on each world. This in itself causes
some friction between colonies of nations friendly to each other on earth, but
with colonies competing out there... makes for interesting dynamics.
Anyway, I'll stop chewing up precious bandwidth now... just thought I'd at
least put my mouth where my mouth is.
> 2014: Qubec votes for independence, and Canada evaporates overnight,
This I find a better possibility than the above. I don't see the
Maritime provinces joining the States- not even by 2014. It's FAR more
likely that they would join Scotland/etc, (and, I think, more likely
still that Canada would survive, at least for some time, after a Quebec
separation). As for Ontario calling itself Canada, I think I can safely
say that many Ontarians (myself included- I'm in the Maritimes for
University) ALREADY think of ourselves essentially as being the whole of
Canada (and you can take that as seriously as you want to). As for BC,
Alberta, Manitoba, and the Yukon joining together, it's possible, but what
happened to Saskatchewan? After all, it IS between Alberta and Manitoba. To be
honest, though, while I can see Alberta and Saskatchewan getting together, I
think that Manitoba is somewhat less likely, and that BC and the Yukon are
much less likely. I also find it interesting that no one mentioned the
Northwest Territories or Nunavut (which is, in itself, ALMOST an example of a
fairly large (although also fairly
empty/undeveloped) piece of land being given back to its natives (with
strings attached)).
Just my views (not criticism- just observations),
Whoops, Knew I forgot a province!
Jason
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 2/18/00 5:21:52 PM Central Standard Time,
> john_t_leary@pronetusa.net writes:
<< > > Yukon, Central Provinces, the US Plains States and the Southwest are
> > returned to Native Peoples.
Jade,
I must agree that this is science-fiction, not fantasy!
Not stopping to consider that every man, woman, and child in Isreal has a gun
and knows how to use it, would mess up the timeline
that was presented. Same thing with the USA, a million man army
of occupation would cease to exist in about two weeks.
> [quoted text omitted]
I would agree, as far as the Southwest, but the rest of the area mentioned,
the plains states especially, are going that way anyway, if you look at census
reports from those areas, they are either losing population, or holding
steady, which means that the population is getting older, and as soon as it
hits a certain average age, will start depopulating quickly. There is already
an environmental movement, small but growing, to make vast unpopulated regions
of the plains states what they call the "Buffalo Commons" to go back to it's
original natural state. It's not out of the realm of possibility that this
could be combined with a well thought out PR campaign to allow the decendants
of Native Americans to make that a independant homeland. After all, with the
decrease in population, via moving and age,
there won't be too many "red-necks" living there at that time, and they
don't have good PR... So an internal Native American "independant" state, I
can buy, give it enough time, and it'll probably happen. As far as the
Southwest, the timeline should be more realistic, as I live here and can see
the demographic changes. If Mexico doesn't have another
revolution in the next 10-20 years, the whole border region will be
defacto mexican territory, with the US having token control of their side of
the
border. This is simply taking present trends and extrapolating them out, it
could change for a number of reasons. For example, if there is a revolution in
Mexico, then the border would become heavily militarized, preventing the
leakage we see now. Or if relations between Mexico and the US soured, we
could see again a tightening of border controls. If a isolationist faction
came into favor in the US, there could be a reversal of this trend. But
barring significant changes the southern border will "change hands", sometime
in the next 10-20 years.
John
> Brian Bilderback wrote:
... Snip...JTL
.... and fiction has to do with
> events we MAKE UP.
XXX Point well taken. JTL XXX
> As to the impossibility of my timeline, let's remember a couple of
Things
> change over time. Demographics, geography, all sorts of changes
XXX Granted that time changes all things, However, the possibility that an
indian nation(s) will control the center of the USA is streaching thingss
just to far. The question becomes: Who gave it to the indians?
As an example, the Quebec(?, Sorry it is to early to spell.) attempt to exit
to Canadian confederation caused the Inuit(?) indians to threaten to leave
Quebec and join another province (This would have resulted in a loss of land
in
Quebec of about 30 to 40 percent.) JTL
XXX
...Snip...JTL
I might have beenm willing to present them with a more
> detailed timeline that actually justifies events as I present them.
XXX I didn't know that this was a partial timeline or I might have asked? JTL
XXX>
> But opinions are personal property, and everyone has a right to one.
What I
> most strongly object to is the fact that now it seems others are
XXX The reference to the army and weapons was a roundabout way of saying that
the concepts of 'force', 'take', and 'give to' with reguard to the USA are
not really viable. The only way the USA can be broken up/controlled is
with the permission of the people. The Official timeline cover the breakup of
the USA by creating a civil
war and having the UK army join one side. This is the sort of
'permission' to which I refer. JTL XXX
> Brian B
No offense intended,
> JohnDHamill@aol.com wrote:
...Snip...JTL
> I would agree, as far as the Southwest, but the rest of the area
There is
> already an environmental movement, small but growing, to make vast
XXX The economic value of the region is to important to the nation and world
to allow this major producer of the worlds food to be allowed to 'return to
nature'. JTL XXX
> As far as the Southwest, the timeline should be more realistic, as I
But
> barring significant changes the southern border will "change hands",
XXX Hispanics are a majority of the population in California. It remains to be
seen if the 'MechA or LaRaza' types will try to carry out the agressive
propaganda of 'taking back' the seven western states. JTL XXX
> [quoted text omitted]
" (and, I think, more likely still that Canada would survive, at least for
some time, after a Quebec separation)."
Yes, if the Quebec separation were the only problem. But as I've said, a lot
more happens to North America to make the breakup happen.
"As for Ontario calling itself Canada, I think I can safely
say that many Ontarians (myself included- I'm in the Maritimes for
University) ALREADY think of ourselves essentially as being the whole of
Canada (and you can take that as seriously as you want to)."
Actually, I take it very seriously, that's why I write it into my timeline.
"As for BC, Alberta, Manitoba, and the Yukon joining together, it's possible,
but what happened to Saskatchewan? After all, it IS between Alberta and
Manitoba. To be honest, though, while I can see Alberta and Saskatchewan
getting together, I think that Manitoba is somewhat less likely"
To be honest, I know a little about Canadian culture and politics, but not
quite enough to know just what to do with the central provinces in my
timeline. I kinda went overboard with them as re: below. suggestions are
welcome.
" and that BC and the Yukon are much less likely. I also find it interesting
that no one mentioned the Northwest Territories or Nunavut (which is, in
itself, ALMOST an example of a fairly large (although also fairly
empty/undeveloped) piece of land being given back to its natives (with
strings attached))."
Actually, I have BC going off and joining a few US Pacific Northwest states to
form a nation (Cascadia, after the Cascadian mountain range that runs
through all of them).
And thank you for bringing up Nunavut, it was the land that gave me the idea
for my Native People's Sovereignty, a loose confederation of nations made up
of former reservations and lands reclaimed when abandoned by the whites. I now
realize this is more likely up in the Yukon, NW Territories, and Alaska than
it is down here, but there are also some regions that are plausible
here, namely the dakotas and the Four corners regions, as well as those parts
of Oklahoma with few whites and substantial Indian populations.
I've also rethought my timeline for the Maritimes. I don't know about
Labrador, but I've decide that while Newfoundland does join the Celtic
nations, Nova Scotia (despite it's name's meaning) chooses to rejoin England,
as in someone else's timeline, and actually becomes a haven for
many staunch Northern Irish royalists who choose to leave Ireland when the
whole island goes Republican.
As you can see, I'm still evolving a universe, and am open to suggestions.
First, let me thank you for expressing far better than I could many of the
very dynamics in the northern plains that I foresaw as bringing about the NPS.
As for the Southwest, I see your point, especially in the urban regions and
right along the border. However, let me make a couple of points:
As I've said, in the southwest, most of the Native holdings would be centered
on the four corners, which, last time I looked at a demographics map, WAS
still mostly Native Americans. As for isolationist tendencies and another
Mexican revolution, both happen. Tensions are quite between Mexico and, first
the US, then the New Bear Republic and the Republic of Texas,
which spring up after the Dissolution Amendment. (Imagine how unhappy the New
Confederacy was when Texas opted NOT to join them. It was a smart
move -
the leaders of the New Confederacy movement didn't realize just how much
trouble they were buying by stirring up certain old ghosts).
In Texas, sheer military brute force keeps the Mexican Army at bay, and a good
portion of the indigenous Latino population actually prefers the Texas
government, considering what Mexico ends up with after the revolution. In
California, especially in San Diego and L.A., the fact that their are so many
OTHER minority groups, as well as the white population, keeps a changing of
hands from happening. (I live in San Diego. Yes, we have a huge
Mexican-American population. But we also have a significant
African-American, Phillipino, Hmong, Lao, Vietnamese, Indian, Eritrean,
Iranian..... you get the picture....)
As for what happens in southern Arizona and New Mexico, again it's an area
I'm weak in knowledge of - I'm thinking Eastern N.M> would join Texas,
but I'm not sure. Any input from you would be helpful.
The Indian issue has been hashed out. As for the "Force" and "Taken" part,
that was inferred, not intentionlly implied. "Given" to them means "Returned
willingly".
As for the US being broken up by the permission of the people, that does
happen in my VERY unofficial timeline, though by plebiscite, not by civil war.
Granted, small local conflicts break out as everyone tries to decide
who gets what, but there is no continent-wide conflagration.
However, if we take all the fancy military hardware found in the games, and
extrapolate (There I go again) that similar technological advances are being
applied to most areas of life, including agriculture, we could suppose that
those regions would find ways of producing food using far less intrusive
methods. Also, if we see large shifts in population to colonies, and a
decrease in demand for foodstuffs on the homeworld proper, we can see this
happening. Furthermore, not all the Native Americans who receive these lands
back are going to be interested in returning to their 18th & 19th century
lifestyles - they like modern life, they just want autonomy.
> Brian Bilderback wrote:
Aw, Shucks! Now ya done made me blush!
In a message dated 2/19/00 2:52:54 PM Central Standard Time,
> bbilderback@hotmail.com writes:
<< As for what happens in southern Arizona and New Mexico, again it's an area
I'm weak in knowledge of - I'm thinking Eastern N.M> would join Texas,
but I'm not sure. Any input from you would be helpful.
Brian B >> Actually Eastern N.M. might end up joining Texas whether they want
to or not, as from a military standpoint it makes very little sense for the
Republic of Texas to let Mexico take it over, so they might simply invade if
they had the
chance. As far as Arizona, there are a lot of die-hards there, and so
might lose some of the lower part of the state, but not the whole thing.
John
In a message dated 2/19/00 1:51:12 PM Central Standard Time,
> john_t_leary@pronetusa.net writes:
<< The economic value of the region is to important to the nation
and world to allow this major producer of the worlds food to be allowed
to 'return to nature'. JTL >>
The trend is going on even as we speak. More grain is coming off of less
land, farmers are going out of business, and the amount of farmland in those
areas under cultivation is decreasing. That is why there is a call in the
environmental community to allow those farms given up to become, piece by
piece, part of the national parks system, and to have a "super park" in the
middle of the US, called the "Buffalo Commons". This has been forwarded by
several groups, and one of the spokesman for the concept is Gen. (Ret) Norman
Schwartzkopf. There is very little jump to allowing te Native Americans to
take this land over, as sort of perpetual stewards, gining them a nation in
fact, if not in name.
John
> At 05:16 AM 2/20/00 +0000, you wrote:
As someone who grew up in the middel of the area you're talking about, I
happen to know something about the "Great Plains Exodus". It's true that the
population of rural areas in the midwest is decreasing. The amount of land
under cultivation is not, however, except in areas that never should have been
cultivated to begin with. And believe me when I say this, NO farmland is ever
"given up". Farmland, even bad farmland is extremely valuable. What's
happening out there is the farmers who don't compete eventually fail, and
their land is bought up by the guy on the next farm who can farm it
competitively.
Now maybe in a hundred years the population of the world won't be fed by the
produce of the midwest U.S., but I doubt it. If Earth begins colonizing other
planets it's going to be even more vital that the cultivation of the Amercan
midwest is not only continued, but increased in output and efficiency;
because,
those other planets will most likely not become self-sufficient for food
any time within 20 years of their colonization. Once one colony becomes
self-supporting, then there would surely be another colony to support.
Now as far as the "red-necks" love their homes bit goes, it's basically
true, although I take offense at the implication that anyone who lives out
here that
isn't a native american is a red-neck. The Amercian midwest is a great
place to live although it may be hard for people who grew up in more heavily
urbanized areas to believe. Let's see, it's got clean air, clean water, cheap
food, large areas of open land where you can hunt, fish, or just appreciate
nature. The way I see it, the reason more people don't live here is that it is
physically far from the centers of commerce, government, and popular
recreation areas. I don't see physical distance remaining an obstacle for
people who want to live in the midwest and work on the coast in a world that
has managed to
invent FTL travel, fractional cee inter-planetary travel, and
inter-stellar
warfare. I also think that anyone who thinks you're going to take an area that
currently produces 75% of the worlds grain out of cultivation and turn it into
a park isn't living in the real world. It may not be recognizable to us as
farming, but I am confident that a 100 years from now, somebody will be
farming somewhere. Humans have only been doing it for a couple of thousand
years, I don't figure they're going to quit in a paltry 100 years.
JMO, it's probably worth what you paid for it.
Bill
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Brian Quirt wrote:
> > > 2014: Qubec votes for independence, and Canada evaporates
could someone explain this to me? why exactly would the maritimes seek to join
up with the celtic british states? i'm not even sure that the celtic british
states would join up amongst themselves, let alone want to hook up
with ex-canadians (no offence to putative ex-canadians!). are there any
Scots, Irish or Welsh listers who would like to comment?
tom
> > > > 2014: Qubec votes for independence, and Canada evaporates
> > > Ireland, and Wales in the Celtic Confederation,
*> > This I find a better possibility than the above. I don't see the
*> > Maritime provinces joining the States- not even by 2014. It's FAR
more
*> > likely that they would join Scotland/etc,
> could someone explain this to me? why exactly would the maritimes seek
I didn't say that it was likely- only that it was FAR more
likely that the maritimes would seek to join the celtic british states (or
britain itself) than that they would join the US. I live in Ontario, but I'm
in the Maritimes for university, and my part in this (marked with the stars in
the above quoted text) is essentially based on my observations.
For a variety of reasons, Canadians tend to hold anti-american
sentiments (not extremely STRONG sentiments, but there is that tendency). I
noticed that in Ontario (and share it to some extent, but that's not relevant
to this discussion), and found that it's also true of the Maritimes. That's
the primary reason that I don't think that the
Maritimes joining the US is likely- and certainly not within the next 15
years. As for celtic british states, I've noticed here that there are strong
connections to those traditions- many of the people here (not most, by
any means, but many) still see themselves as having strong connections
to various parts of the UK, and to scotland/ireland/wales in particular.
I have no idea as to what the celtic british states think about this- my
only opinion is about the sentiments HERE. And you will note that I
considered it more likely that the Maritimes would remain w/ Ontario et.
al. to try to keep Canada alive, than that they would join Britain.
Although, to be honest, I don't see the NAC as THAT likely either. Although,
if the US was involved in a modern (and potentially nuclear) civil war, I
guess the UK is the next obvious choice as an ally....
Above is my opinions only....
In a message dated 2/20/00 7:55:33 AM Central Standard Time,
> thomas.anderson@university-college.oxford.ac.uk writes:
<< could someone explain this to me? why exactly would the maritimes seek to
join up with the celtic british states? i'm not even sure that the celtic
british states would join up amongst themselves, let alone want to hook up
with ex-canadians (no offence to putative ex-canadians!). are there any
Scots, Irish or Welsh listers who would like to comment?
tom >>
There is a history going back a long way of inter-celtic cooperation
among the three provinces, during Robert the Bruce's attempt to gain freedom
for Scotland, his brother, Edward, went to Ireland and sought to become High
King, with the blessing of the then current O'Neal. The idea was to unite the
celtic peoples, or at least those who could claim some sort of celtic
heritage, into a united front against the Norman dominated England.
Unfortunately for the idea, Edward died, due mostly to his extreme
impetouosness, but if he had lived, and suceeded, the history of the British
isles might have taken a quite different turn. There only has to be a
resurgence of Celtic identity among the people of Ireland, Scotland, and
Wales, and you could easily have this sort of thing happening.
John
In a message dated 2/20/00 8:36:23 AM Central Standard Time,
bbrush2@unl.edu writes:
<< As someone who grew up in the middel of the area you're talking about, I
happen to know something about the "Great Plains Exodus". It's true that the
population of rural areas in the midwest is decreasing. The amount of land
under cultivation is not, however, except in areas that never should have been
cultivated to begin with. And believe me when I say this, NO farmland is ever
"given up". Farmland, even bad farmland is extremely valuable. What's
happening out there is the farmers who don't compete eventually fail, and
their land is bought up by the guy on the next farm who can farm it
competitively.>>
I live in a fairly large agricultural state, (Texas) and have seen the numbers
as far as the amount of land under cultivation. It is now less than at any
time in this century, and the decline is still happening. The simple reason,
more crops can be grown on less acreage than at any time in our history.
Considering that we regularly have surpluses that drive the prices down to the
point that farmers can't even pay their loans, and are forced off
their lands, with them sold to their neighbors or an agri-business. Yes
the inefficient farmers are taken over by the more effecient ones, but a lot
of the land that was used for crops is not being put back into use, especially
in the plains states that we're talking about. Conbine that with the fact that
the aquifers in the plains are running out of water, and the farmers there,
unless they miracle their way to a water source, won't have any water to grow
those crops, and you have a perfect setup for the kind of situation that we're
talking about.
<<Now maybe in a hundred years the population of the world won't be fed by the
produce of the midwest U.S., but I doubt it. If Earth begins colonizing other
planets it's going to be even more vital that the cultivation of the Amercan
midwest is not only continued, but increased in output and efficiency;
because,
those other planets will most likely not become self-sufficient for
food any time within 20 years of their colonization. Once one colony becomes
self-supporting, then there would surely be another colony to
support.>>
It'll be much cheaper in the long run to feed the colonists by greenhouse
forced-growth techniques, vat-cloned meats, or some sort of algae based
food, than importing all their food stuffs from the homeworld. The transport
costs alone for all that food would drive the price of colonization to the
point of collapse. Besides, the history of colonization isn't one of
continuing expenditures for colonial welfare, "vanity" colonies quickly
disappeared. The only colonies that, historically, survived, were the ones who
quickly became
self-sufficient, in regards to their basic needs, the mother countries
were more than happy to make money off their colonial possesions by supplying
everything else.
<<Now as far as the "red-necks" love their homes bit goes, it's
basically true, although I take offense at the implication that anyone who
lives out here that
isn't a native american is a red-neck. The Amercian midwest is a great
place to live although it may be hard for people who grew up in more heavily
urbanized areas to believe. Let's see, it's got clean air, clean water, cheap
food, large areas of open land where you can hunt, fish, or just appreciate
nature. The way I see it, the reason more people don't live here is that it is
physically far from the centers of commerce, government, and popular
recreation areas. I don't see physical distance remaining an obstacle for
people who want to live in the midwest and work on the coast in a world that
has managed to
invent FTL travel, fractional cee inter-planetary travel, and
inter-stellar
warfare. I also think that anyone who thinks you're going to take an area that
currently produces 75% of the worlds grain out of cultivation and turn it into
a park isn't living in the real world. It may not be recognizable to us as
farming, but I am confident that a 100 years from now, somebody will be
farming somewhere. Humans have only been doing it for a couple of thousand
years, I don't figure they're going to quit in a paltry 100 years.>>
The area we're talking about is already being taken slowly out of cultivation,
if you look at the numbers. The only thing we're trying to do is to forecast
reasonable results of current trends. It doesn't mean the entire area would be
taken out of cultivation, just a broad swath of it. The areas of great plains
farmland furthest east would probably stay into production, and would, given
the increased production due to agrcultural science, be
producing more than the entire area does today. As far as the "red-neck"
thing goes, people of any sort will not stay in an area that they can't take
care of their families in. The whole history of the US is one big story of
"voting with your feet", leaving for greener pastures when your current ones
got bad. I see no evidence that that will change in the future.
<<JMO, it's probably worth what you paid for it.>>
A very interesting conversation...
John
Because the population of much of the Maritimes, from what I've studied, is
predominantly Cletic to begin with. I recently learned that there are, for
instance, Dialects of the Irish Gaelic language still spoken in Newfoundland
that have gone extinct in their native regions of Ireland.
As for the joining of the Celtic states, again, a lot depends on certain
events happening in real life to make it not only politically desirable, but
also economically and militarily necessary.
Brian B
----Original Message Follows----
From: Tom Anderson <thomas.anderson@university-college.oxford.ac.uk>
could someone explain this to me? why exactly would the maritimes seek to join
up with the celtic british states? i'm not even sure that the celtic british
states would join up amongst themselves, let alone want to hook up
with ex-canadians (no offence to putative ex-canadians!). are there any
Scots, Irish or Welsh listers who would like to comment?
tom
/Lurker decloak mode
Just a question...Back in the 80's I saw a TV program about Canada's latest
struggle to remain a country. They were running around asking citizens of
various provences what they thought should happen if Canada did break up. The
general consensous of those asked, (excepting Quabeck...OK my spelling is
lacking -- Sorry! I live in Michigan, and there are places here I still
have
trouble with! :-) ) if Canada did break up, they had no objections to
joining the U.S. Then I heard the Maritime provences stating that they
definitly would join the U.S. upon breakup...Shortly thereafter, the vote was
supposedly passed by one(or a handfull?) to remain a country...
Is what I heard back then the truth? Or was I having delusions? Or did I just
hear it wrong?
Could someone in the know please clear this up for me?
If that was true...Then canada would eventually disappear and the U.S. gets
bigger. The long term effects would be increased natural resources for the
U.S., and Canada would finally get a first rate post office. (Or has that been
fixed since then? So hard to get news of other countrys...)
Thanks
/Lurker cloak mode