ADLER TAG AAR

Los,

Great battle report. Can't wait to see the pics!

> At 02:11 PM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote:

We've been talking about implementing something like this for our Imperium
campaign. I'd be interested in hearing what your rules for SAR ops are. Is
this strictly for determining pilot experience or would you allow replacement
of a portion of the fighters as well?

Thanks.

> Robertson, Brendan wrote:

> Yeeehaarrrrr!!!!!

I plan on writing up a detailed AAR plus the thing is going to be extrapolated
into the story but......

We started at about 1 pm (w/ Prep) and it lasted till 10pm. We used my
living room floor covered with two GEOHEX star maps. (Got pictures) Any space
mini that was mounted was pressed into service on one side or the other. (I
ran out of fighters so we used quarters with a tiny die representing
strength). (Dimes were used to track capital missiles, small dice were used to
track SMLs) Like I said last night we had 22
ships/30 ftrs of Kra'Vak (10500 pts) vs 44 ships/96 fighters NAC/NSL
(14,800 pts). Absolutely massive. We had burned two special space combat music
cds which were playing in the background. Tonight I will upload some pics to
the net for all to see.

The goal of the battle was to support and resolve the story so Kr'rt (my
opponent) was fighting under certain guidelines and constraints) The 1st CAF
entered the area along one side spread into four groups. On the left
was TF3 w/  2 BCs and two strike cruisers (SCs). On the right was TF1
with 2 CVs, 2 BCs, to Escort cruisers (ECs) and 8 DDs. In the middle was TF1
with 4 SDs, 4 BCs and 2 ECs. Ahead of them was a "skirmish line"
(TF4) of 8 DD/Ms.

The plan of the 1st CAF was to take advantage of the KV Railgun Firing arc
limitations by enveloping them and to hitting them from outside their FAs.

TURN ONE The KV started out with all their forces broken into little 2 to 4
ship squadrons in the center of the board. Their heavy forces consisted of at
least 4 SDs and 4 BBs. Their smallest ships were Cruisers (Vo'boks)

Turn one saw 1 CAF shaking out into different speeds so as to put the two
flanking TFs ahead of the center in sort of a double envelopment move. The
tightly massed and controlled KV force began some internal manuevering. My
guess is that they were planning on avoiding my SML salvo at all costs.

TURN TWO On the second turn, the Humans raced towards the enemy with both
flanking forces ahead of the center force. The KV concentrated most of their
heavy units on TF3. They wisely chose to keep their force together and ignored
TF1. There opened a long range fight since most of my SDs and BCs were able to
fire at extreme range though this was outside of KV RG range. We scored some
notable hits. Only TF3 received any return fire and began taking damage. It
was clear that the KV heavies were gonna try and polish off this small force
first which was fine by me as it allowed the rest of my forces freedom of
manuever They attempte dto drive their whole fleet to the gap between TF3 and
TF2 with an intent on hitting TF2's flank. They showed littel regard for the
missile destroyers of TF4 which would cost then dearly. I launched two
massivfighter strikes. Strike 1 consisted of 10 fighter groups (FG) while the
second consisted of 6 FGs. 2 FGs remained on BARCAP. Also I fired off the
first SML salvo, but the KV had anticipated this and were able to avoid any of
the missiles! However, this caused them to maneuver into an area where they
would pay heavily on the next turn.

TURN THREE On the Third turn the fleets clashed. Another SML strike went out,
and its arrival was timed perfectly with both the fighter strikes and the
capital missiles. So here we had a large KV force within 12" of many of my
units but the deadly scatter guns had to concentrate on point defense. Instead
of spreading out missile and fighter attacks they were ocnentrated on units so
as to overwhelm PDS where possible. A line of explosions erupted throughout
the KV fleet as their ships took severe damage. More importantly were were
depleting the hated scatter guns during the turns where we would be at close
range. Still our fighters had to contend with enemy fighters (handled by the
escorts) and PDS and we lost heavily. After that there were many ships
streaming atmopsphere (When you make your first threshold check, we used
cottton whisps to show that).

The Kra'vak were intent on destroying the 4 ships in TF3. The first NSL BC
winked out of existence. However the KV took very heavy damaged as one Vo'bok
exploded and one of their BBs went dead. The 1st CAF main beam line opened up
with 4 SDs and 4 BCs. The effect on the already damaged KV line was
devastating.

Oddly enough I notice that the KV preferred to mass their fire on individual
ships. They concentrated on heavies ignoring lighter units (I
lost 3 DD/Ms the whole battle..each only required one hit.) The SDs and
TF3 drew almost all of the KV attention. In particular they concentrated on
the KRS Markgraf, 1st CAFs flagship. I can only deduce that they were picking
up the increased EM traffic emanating for that ship and figured that
destroying it would throw the rest of the fleet into confusion. The SD soaked
up punishing fire, and Adm Von Bulow was killed in a bridge hit. Even after
she was drifting helpless they continued to pound her until she exploded, but
this pretty much left other ships relatively damage free. Command devolved
down to Adm Bellamy in TF1 on the RNS Hornet.

TURN FOUR As the turn four order writing phase was in progress, the KV player
rolled one die. He rolled even which was good for him. Standing up across the
room I tossed eight pennies into the space behind his fleet and told him that
his ships were detecting odd fluctuations to the space back there. This
allowed him time to react with at least part of his fleet, but not knowing
what they were I think he just ignored them. After order writing, eight small
ships decloaked behind his force, one on each penny. This was my pig boat
squadron, lead by the Kohl. Seven torpedo boats had been outfitted with the
new technology. Each of the pig boats carried 2 SMLs and a PDS.(I might change
this to submunitions packs)

SO turn four stated with another SML strike from front and read, as well as
renewed fighter attacks and capital missiles. The KV return fire was very
noticeably lessened, having extended many of their Scatterguns on last turn's
attacks against missiles, fighters and ships. This attack broke the Kra'Vak
Fleet's back. Missiles and fighters concentrated on the KV heavies. I think
two SDs or BBs outright exploded and most of the rest went on second threshold
checks. The main enagement was suitably bloody. The enemy continued to ignore
my light units (thank god they chose to ignore the tiny but very high value
cloak capable pigboats and the Kohl!), and concentrate on the SDs. The KRS
Bismarck was destroyed. The KRS Fredrich had to dump her power core. The rest
of TF3 was put out of action. (1 SC dead, 2 BCs dead and 1 SC drifting) But
everyone else was now hammering the KV. My SDs and BCs concentrated their fire
on the KV cruiser blowing them up or shooting them apart one at a time. TF1
which had been alone on the right flank finally got itself turned around and
was entering action with some long range fire from the battlecruisers.

Turn Five saw the KV manuevering themselves for escape. FTL drives began to
cook up. A final SML salvo was avoided by them. However the fighters made
desperate attacks against the retreating enemies finishing off stricken
cruisers. TF1 was in full pursuits. Again that little KV fire their was was
concentrated on the last 2 allied SDs, ignoring the deadly stings of my
pursuing lighter units. 1st TF was directed to board any KV ship that was
drifting. I needed more intel!

On Turn six the last of the KV ships attempted FTL. The one cruiser that
covered the retreat as destroyed by fighters and dd fire. My heavies
concentrated on the rest, 3 KV SDs died before they could escape.

On turn seven there were five abandoned KV FGs left in local space as well as
one drifting KV Vobok. Bridge was down, life support out. TF1 hove to and
commenced boarding. The KV ship surrendered! Not so for the final emery
fighters. They attacked dthe stricken Fredrich already drifting defenseless.
Two Radetsky class escort cruisers closed ranks together with the Barrier CAP,
took care of the desperate attackers with some further damage to the KRS
Fredrich.

So ended the massive battle. Of the 22 main ships in the KV force, only 1 SD
and 4 Vobok cruisers escaped, all of them grievously damaged. 1 Vobok was
captured. This left 3 SDs, 9 cruisers, and 4 BBs destroyed as well as 30
fighters.

1st CAF losses were put at 2 SDs destroyed (Bismarck and the Markgraf), 2 BCs
destroyed, one Strike cruiser and three missile destroyers destroyed. Heavy
damage to one strike cruiser, one Super dreadnought. Light or no damage to
others. The fighter arm suffered worst. They lost 76 fighters! Subsequently
rescue operations (since we know owned the space) netted 33 ejection capsules
but only 15 of those pilots are fit for duty. Pretty much every SML in the
fleet was fired off.

Some observations:

1. The Kra'Vak chose to concentrate their fires almost exclusively on my
heavies. They would continue pounding a ship long after it was already
combat ineffective while virtually ignoring the DD/Ms (which were able
to get off all their salvos) and the new cloak-capable PIG BOATS. I
think this may have to do with the strict hierarchical KV culture. Perhaps
firing at the little ships is "beneath" them? Or perhaps They figured that
concentrating on the heavies would shatter the morale of the fleet or disrupt
a perceived strong centralized control network?

2. Carrier based aviation is a good thing! Timing your missile and fighter
attacks so they arrive together and overwhelm enemy defenses is crucial. (We
screwed up and allowed all aspect Scattergun firing which
IMO more than made up for limiting capital missle kills to a 4-6 There
weren't that many anyways.) Until his fleet warped out the KV fighters were
all used in a screening role. My strike groups had interceptors flying escort
which occupied the KV CAP and allowed the rest of the ships to get through.
Always concentrate multiple attacks so as to overwhelm the PDS. KV scatterguns
are simply too powerful to do elsewise.

3.I know they are controversial but I like both rerolls and core systems
rules. I had to dump power cores on an SD and a SC (Both of which I was
unwilling to lose). The Kra'Vak suffered a power core explosion. We also
modified core damage as follows: A. Life support: resolved per FB
B. Bridge + power core. The turn after hit they are automatically
down.After that the player rolls 1d6. On a 6 it's up again. (On a 1 the power
core is out for good.) Next turn he rolls again, on a 5,6 it's repaired, next
turn 4,5,6 and so on. Adds more guesswork into it.

Rerolls with KV rail guns. We did it like this: Say a 2RG is firing. It rolls
a 6. That's 4 pts damage. Subsequent roll is a 1. That's an additional 2
points (as opposed to nothing).

4. The Kra'Vak commander played the roll to a T. Considering the force he was
up against it was a very tough fight. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of his
briefing room when he meets the clan leader. On our end we have a captured
(though extremely beat up) Vo'Bok Hunter to take apart as well as over a
diozen prisoners, though many are severaly injured. Does anyone know what
these things eat?

> Jeff Lyon wrote:

> Los,

I will talk more about this later but its relly for determining fighter
availability for future battles. There ususally are more ships than pilots in
a squadron, but after several battles both dwindle fast. In this case the 1st
CAF will have undertaken three fighter intensive operation to secure a landing
on Rot Hafen (HARBINGER I. ADLER TAG, and HARBINGER II), all with significant
loss of fghters. Now it has to replenish in perparation for any further moves
by KV forces.

BTW re: fighters agaisnt scatter guns. 1st CAF analysts are realizing that
employing fighters against undepleted scatter guns are suicide.
Either they have to let the first SML/ CAP salvos in and then attack the
next turn, or employ a greater mass per ship or greater wild weasel
capabilities against them. More damage was done by less than 40 fighters on
the second attack than 96 on the first attack.

misc adler tag aar notes, please ignore as usual :-)

> On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Los wrote:

surely this should now be renamed the Schroeder?

> 1st TF was directed to board any KV

as always... incidentally, i seem to recall a note in MT about striking the
flag that a KV ship would never surrender to humans and vice versa...

> hove to and commenced boarding. The KV ship surrendered!

complain!

> 2. Carrier based aviation is a good thing!

you don't say! welcome to the now. still, it's good to have empirical data.

> 4. The Kra'Vak commander played the roll to a T. Considering the force

something tells me there'd be plenty of fresh meat about...

> Does anyone know what these things eat?

erm... you. usually. i s'pose burger king is out of the question...

still, over all: top ace AAR, sounds like a mondo battle. i award you the Star
of the Order of Topness. wear it with pride.

Tom

> Thomas Anderson wrote:

> as always ...

There's been much discussion on teh board late of the Surrender switch
mechanism in KV culture. I guess they switched. Of course, the bridge and life
support was down as were all weapons. it was a floating hulk so there wasn't
much say in it.

> still, over all: top ace AAR, sounds like a mondo battle. i award you

Thanks.

Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> Jeff Lyon wrote:

Don't most carriers carry fighter spares 'broken down' which can be put
together to replace losses (and hence your carrier only needs to get
replacement pilots, much easier and cheaper)? This concept was used (I
thought) in RL and I know in SFB. Seems to me you'd have 'ready spares' aboard
equal to between 50 and 100% of your fighter bay capacity.

Here's an idea for this in FB terms. Ready spares take up half the size and
weight on a per unit basis as regular fighters, but cannot be used within the
context of a scenario. It would take at least 12 FT turns to ready 'ready
spare' fighters, and that can only be done in an empty bay and if pilots are
available (rare!). This means your carriers get even more massive to
accomodate these. Ready spares
might or might not be represented by a damage box (probably should) -
maybe two spares to a box?

Someone FT wise can comment more on the feasibility of these ideas. Or maybe
these ready spares are already assumed in carriers.

Tom.

/************************************************

Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

Well, you may suggest these are on replenishment vessels. But I have an
argument for making them carrier based. In space (a difference from the
ground), humans are the expensive (spacewise) resource. You can't pack people
going into interstellar space like sardines exactly. And they need CO2
scrubbers, air supplies, food supplies, etc. A broken down fighter (modular
possibly) occupies space. Weight is (almost) inconsequential compared against
ship mass. Space is a premium, but depending on hull design, the extra space
may not be that hard to come by.

Now, on a CVL, maybe your spares are 20%, on a CVS maybe 30%, and maybe on a
CV about 50%. Maybe on a SCS, SSCS, or SCV, you spares are also in the 50%
region. Maybe another 100% are kept in the fleet train. In 'victorious'
operations (even some losing ones), you'll recover more pilots than craft if
you auto ejector systems are any good.

> I would not support this rule unless you designed the storage capacity

That's what I had in mind.

So a CV that can normally support 6 fighter
> bays can now have 4 bays and two spare depots. This would give it a

But that makes you dependent on your fleet train. Not good for CVS operating
behind enemy lines (think Tiger's Claw from WIng Commander). I think the
operational paradigm you are suggesting gives your carriers more punch per
mass but ties them much more closely to their logistics train.

> The whole thing is sort of a campiagn rule anyway. I don't see anyone

Maybe, maybe not. As an electronics guy, I've seen test jigs for systems that
will run a test that used to take 24 hrs in seven minutes. And be more
accurate and complete than a human. I can well
see a fighter being bashed-up, hooked to a test system, tested, and
this includes external inspection, in a three hour period with the right load
handling and test equipment which I assume is standard on modern 2185
carriers. But YMMV.

Unless you are carrying double the compliment of
> grease monkeys to keep the spares in a state of semi-preparedness.

45 minutes? If one is using 15 minute turns, I'd say that is an awful long
time given the state of the art today and in 2185. I'd think 1 or 2 turns (or
maybe this would be some sort of a purchased advantage or a tech advantage for
high tech forces, hmm....?). Of course, they may not have been thinking 15
minute turns either. That was just some number I heard on the net. It could be
longer if that is your taste.
I think 45 min to re-arm a fighter is off-base (correct me if any of
you has modern fighter jock experience). I'm not talking about
re-inspection, calibration, etc. I'm just talking about land, refuel,
switch pilots, re-arm, take off again.

Still, your rule
> is an interesting option if the CV has the carrying capacity. I know

I guess I'm suggesting to some extent that SFB had the right idea
which allowed CVs to operate further from their logistics train - but
I guess to be fair they probably lost combat power to do this (I don't know,
it didn't allow ship design too well). But as we both know, half the time, how
you can operate at a strategic level is what matters. Once you've reached the
fight, you should already have won (Sun Tzu...). So the ability to move
further from your logistics chain would be (in that ideal) a better option
than more close in slugging power.

Just my usual 0.04.

Tom.
/************************************************

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> Don't most carriers carry fighter spares 'broken down' which can be

I don't know, In the twentieth century there are only a few extra aircraft on
an air craft carrier. (I've been on an assault carrier the Tarawa, they had 8
Harriers, no spares) A fighter is a big thing, (remember it's not just the
fighter but all the spare components, attachments, engines etc) in outer space
or here and space on a ship is and will always be at an absolute premium. A
typical (US) fighter squadron today has 18 aircraft and about 30 pilots.
Fielding a full 16 plane formation leaves you 2 spares. And very seldom in
peacetime or war do you have a full compliment of either pilots or fighters.

I don't believe you would have much room for spares on teh carrier itself.
However the fleet train should have a certain number of spares available.
However these would take a certain amountb of time to bring out of storage and
make operational. Again it's a matter of space and logistical support.

> Here's an idea for this in FB terms. Ready spares take up half the

I would not support this rule unless you designed the storage capacity into
the ship to start with. So a CV that can normally support 6 fighter bays can
now have 4 bays and two spare depots. This would give it a compliment of 8
FGs. However only 4 could be used at any one time operationally. I'd rather
have the operational fighters and leave replenishment up to the fleet train.

The whole thing is sort of a campiagn rule anyway. I don't see anyone taking a
fighter out of storage and getting it ready for combat in just 3 hours, future
or not. Unless you are carrying double the compliment of
grease monkeys to keep the spares in a  state of  semi-preparedness.
Heck it takes what? Three turns just to arm the things. Still, your rule is an
interesting option if the CV has the carrying capacity. I know there's a
couple Navy guys on the list. Maybe they could chime in.

> hove to and commenced boarding. The KV ship surrendered!

What! You didn't fight the boarding action out using Stargrunt?

Great report, though, thanks,

Nick Caldwell clcaldwell@primary.net