> Now, a question that some may wish to answer off list. I have seen
Just
> curious.
Not wanting to turn this into an Anti GW thread but I spent a good 2 years
playing nothing but SpaceMarine (Epic) the thing that got me was certainly the
prices which are based on how many you are likely to buy for an army. i.e.
Champion figure single £5, box of 5 plastic footmen £5.
I also didn't like the view of "do what you like, make what ever army you
like" and then go and make every product Army, Chapter, Race specific. With
decals, painting suggestions & equipment for that particular group.
Getting into something like FT was just like being let out of prison, I could
finally without any feelings of guilt do and play how I bloody well liked:)
It's a breath of fresh air, and I ain't going back. No way!:)
> Now, a question that some may wish to answer off list. I have seen
It goes back a long way into gaming history. When RPG gaming was really just
started in the UK, GW were a small chain of shops that sold everybodies games
- Avalon Hill, TSR etc etc etc. They also did a very good games magazine
(white Dwarf as was) and did a lot to maintain the growth of the hobby.
Over time, things changed. GW started developing their own games or licencing
other people's stuff for manufacturing and sale by themself. They did their
own figures for these games too. White Dwarf started to cover more material on
these games and less on the 'competitions'.
Eventually, one dark day, GW decided they weren't going to deal with other
people's games any more. White Dwarf only covered their products and you had
to go elsewhere if you wanted something else. The problem was that GW had been
doing such a good job, a lot of the 'somewhere elses' didn't exist any more.
This didn't happen overnight or anything, but neveretheless a lot of people
feel GW 'abandoned' the gaming community in favour of doing and marketing it's
own thing.
So, there are GW, doing their own thing and making and selling games. But the
way they do it is interesting, from a business point of view. The whole thing
- GW, the codex's, whatever - is designed to feedback on itself. A new
WD comes out with some new rules. Those new rules are an advantage to play.
But to if you play them, you might want to buy this new figure that goes with
the rules. If you don't, someone else might. You don't want to be at a
disadvantage do you?
Then there's the basic thing - cost. GW charge more for their stuff than
anyone else. Their stuff is good, but the quality doesn't justify the extra
cost. The problem with this is because they produce their own magazines and
don't sell anyone elses stuff, you could carry on gaming thinking what you are
paying *is* the going rate for what you get. The consumer isn't presented with
any choice of manufacturer. What the general gist of all this is subjectively,
some people feel GW is exploiting their consumers.
I personally don't have anything against GW - I've played a lot of great
games over time that I bought from their shops when they sold other people's
stuff. I play a couple of their games too. I *know* their stuff is overpriced
but at least I am making an informed choice when I buy it. A lot of people
don't feel that way. A lot of people feel GW really should think more of the
people who were the ones who helped them when they were small. My opinion of
that is that we all got something out of the relationship - they got
cash, we
got games - so I don't see GW 'owes' us anything.
The fact of the matter remains though that GW's actions within the UK gaming
'community' probably didn't help it much. GW did what a commercial
organisation will generally always do - put it's profits first.
> In a message dated 7/9/99 8:28:29 AM EST, zzalsjfw@fs2.mcc.ac.uk writes:
<<
The fact of the matter remains though that GW's actions within the UK gaming
'community' probably didn't help it much. GW did what a commercial
organisation will generally always do - put it's profits first.
> [quoted text omitted]
And their attitude about what goes on the table. A friend gamed at a club
sponsored by GW while he was on an extended trip to England. He had gone to
the trouble to take his rather beautiful Warhammer armies with him!
Non-GW
figures were present he was told to take "that trash" off the table. Not a
charming attitude!
> On 9-Jul-99 at 09:28, Jonathan White (zzalsjfw@fs2.mcc.ac.uk) wrote:
> Then there's the basic thing - cost. GW charge more for their stuff
You will also get arguements about the quality. I wouldn't say their stuff is
good, I would say it is easy to paint. The quality of the castings tends to be
good, but the originals the castings are made from are very low in detail.
Generally (thinking about my Necro stuff) Buckles on boots, a grossly large
chain around the neck, and the rest large blank surfaces. They are about
equivalent in price to Thunderbolt Mountain, but not nearly as nice.
> Over time, things changed. GW started developing their own games or
Can I just add that as far as I am aware the guy running Citadel minatures
took over GW when Steve Jackson left.
This I believe is why so much emphasis went in to having the right figures for
games as opposed to just using what you like with a set of rules.
And any game which states in it's rules. "what the figure is wearing and
carrying is what they have in the game."
> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:42:09 EDT ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> [...] their attitude about what goes on the table. A friend gamed at
off the table. Not a charming attitude! <
I think "attitude" really sums up most people's problems with GW. The attitude
that GW gaming is somehow different (and, of course, superior)
to other games (the "GW hobby" line); the attitude to non-GW stuff as
described above (I can live with GW wanting to concentrate on its own
games; that's not unusual -- the AH General did the same thing, long
before WD went all-GW); the attitude that only the latest release of
each game is valid -- we've all heard the saga of the gamers not
allowed to take part in an event because their minis dated from the
previous edition of a game -- or even a previous game! (How do you
imagine GW would cope with someone trying to use "Space Fleet" ships in a game
of BFG?)
Then there's the insistence on everything being "official" (which,
interestingly enough, is belied by what is published in WD, but not in
practice, it seems) and the monomania that the idea of the "GW hobby"
produces. Games clubs that purport to be "wargames" clubs, but _only_
play GW, are rife (and are often supported by local GW stores). Anyone
who has a copy of issue 30 of Ragnarok will have laughed/groaned over
the stories of the kid who wouldn't buy some green paint because its use as a
shade of Ork flesh hadn't been "officially" approved, or the
one who thought some home-made rules were really neat when he saw them
played at a con, but lost interest when he found out that they were
home-made, and not "real" rules.
And yes, they're expensive. Something _I_ find annoying is that they
don't live up to their promises: I've been trying to get some spare parts (a
decal sheet) for years, but first they wouldn't sell me one because it was too
small an order, and then, when I had a big enough order, they'd decided not to
do them by mail order or something! So
much for the much-vaunted Mail Order Trollz!
But beside all that, the thing which I _really_ object to about GW,
both for myself and as a (hopefully) responsible parent, is the sheer
bleakness of GW's games. There is no optimism at all; every "nation" or
side is equally dreary and corrupt -- if not literally, then morally.
The entire GW universe is just one big bloodbath, with no redeeming
features whatsoever that I can find. And they _push_ this ethos in all
their material: "Suffer not the alien"; "Blood for the Blood God"; Heresy,
Chaos, Decay.... Yuk!
Contrast this with the Tuffleyverse. Jon has said many a time that his
universe was designed to provide a setting for conflict, and that there
are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but at least there _is_ a positive
side to it. The ESU comes over (to me, anyway) as Communists In Space, but
they have admirals who, after joining with a nominal enemy to fight the
Kra'Vak, offer their surrender in order to avoid further bloodshed; and the
NAC commander refuses to accept that surrender because the human powers may
soon need every fighting ship and crewmember that they've got. I don't want to
get into an argument as to whether this is realistic or not, but at least it
shows courtesy and respect, which are
_supposed_ to be military virtues. The only thing "respected" in GW's
world is the biggest chainsaw!
Phil, who can't take "the blood god" seriously, not after my son came up with
"Squash for the Squash God! Pumpkins for the Pumpkin Throne!" <g> while
cooking one day.