I've tried a few of these conversions. Some observations:
1) Try to draw straight line parallels. Assume Stargrunt troops are roughly
equivalent to Imperial Guard (IG are regulars with basic battle dress and FP2
AP D8 rifles). Make Space Marines wear light slow power armour, and Termnators
wear heavy slow power armour. Make jump packs fast power armour. Marines are
definitely veterans to the IG regulars. Make vehicles like dreadnoughts, as
vehicles.
2) Change the psychology. Stargrunt is a game decided by its model of human
psychology on the battlefield. Space Marines don't have that same psychology.
They aren't pinned, they don't use cover, they are easy to hit. They don't
carry wounded, nor do losses particularly phase them. Play around with this.
Marines also don't have the same command structure; definitely limit who can
transfer actions or you'll have too many chiefs and hyperactive Indians. Maybe
no communications; must be within 6".
3) Looks for the loopholes and try to reasonably plug them. Marines, for
example, have no dedicated anti-air weapons or guided missiles in 40K.
By SG2 rules, they can't hit or target any airborne vehicle. In 40K, they can.
Either say they have targeters in their PA to track air targets, or include a
few guided missiles in their normal missile launcher kit.
What a great digest of "Why I think 40K stinks!"
<I've tried a few of these conversions. Some observations:
1) Try to draw straight line parallels. Assume Stargrunt troops are roughly
equivalent to Imperial Guard (IG are regulars with basic battle dress and FP2
AP D8 rifles). Make Space Marines wear light slow power armour, and Termnators
wear heavy slow power armour. Make jump packs fast power armour. Marines are
definitely veterans to the IG regulars. Make vehicles like dreadnoughts, as
vehicles.
2) Change the psychology. Stargrunt is a game decided by its model of human
psychology on the battlefield. Space Marines don't have that same psychology.
They aren't pinned, they don't use cover, they are easy to hit. They don't
carry wounded, nor do losses particularly phase them. Play around with this.
Marines also don't have the same command structure; definitely limit who can
transfer actions or you'll have too many chiefs and hyperactive Indians. Maybe
no communications; must be within 6".
3) Looks for the loopholes and try to reasonably plug them. Marines, for
example, have no dedicated anti-air weapons or guided missiles in 40K.
By SG2 rules, they can't hit or target any airborne vehicle. In 40K, they can.
Either say they have targeters in their PA to track air targets, or include a
few guided missiles in their normal missile launcher kit.
> [quoted text omitted]
I think that a relevant question with any such conversion is: what are you
trying to accomplish? Are you trying to play 40K with SGII rules, or are you
trying to fit the 40K forces into an SGII setting?
In my attempts, I was trying to fit the 40K empire into an SGII-like
setting. The Empire was old, powerful, and decadent. The average Imperial
citizen spent much of his life planning his own death -- a spectacular
and gory suicide is seen as the best way to exit. The entire culture was
fixated upon death, and war was seen mainly as an opportunity for a proper and
meaningful death. Imperial weapons and tactics were designed to give their
obviously inferior opponents a fighting chance; war without risk was seen as
pointless. While terran weapons weren't particularly impressive by Imperial
standards, their tactics proved quite effective.
I used the following adaptations, then, with Marines.
Because of their greater size (in comparison with "normal" 25mm humans) and
their disdain for cover, Marines are always treated as though they are one
range band closer than they really are.
Because they are part of a culture that values a good death over a good life,
they are less effected by suppression and may remove one free suppression
marker each turn without having to roll or spend an action.
Because there is no honor in killing an enemy who cannot even see your face,
Marine weapons are designed to have a very short range -- a bolter fires
more like an SMGs than an assault rifle. Of course, the bullets are much
larger.... Bolters treat all ranges as one band higher, and give all defensive
rolls a negative die shift.
Marines ignore their own wounded, although they will sometimes finish them
off.
Marines need to make a morale check in order to avoid charging an enemy who is
within charge range.
There were a few more bits, but this is what I remember. It's been so long
since I played that I'm getting fuzzy on the SGII mechanics at this
point --
I've been spending all of my time/effort on ShockForce.
> At 10:18 AM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
Huge problem here. If you make regular Marines as Light, slow powered armour
then they become ABSOLUTE monsters in close combat. And I mean monsters.
Remember that in Close Assault, if one models is in Powered Armour and the
other isn't, then the PA model gets to DOUBLE its close assault roll. That
makes PA troopers quite nasty.
> Make vehicles like dreadnoughts, as vehicles.
Makes sense. Make the Marines more like the psychotic crazies they are
supposed to be.
But the idea of the Human Psychology in SGII is what makes the game so great
for me. Its so reassuring to see a squad panic (whether yours or the enemy)
because "...they just capped Jones, man! S#*t! What are we gonna do now!?!"
and not just tip the mini over and carry on.
> Marines also don't have the same command structure; definitely limit
Or simply allow only the designated commander on the battlefield (In most
cases, the SM captain) to tranfer actions. That will ceratinly cut back on
the amount of action-transferral.
> 3) Looks for the loopholes and try to reasonably plug them. Marines,
By
> SG2 rules, they can't hit or target any airborne vehicle. In 40K, they
Just give them the option of using Ground-to-Air missiles for missile
launchers.
Steve Pugh did some of the work regarding 40k PA 2 years ago; check out:
http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/sg/pads.htm#warhammer
This should ease a few of the problems.
'Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
Commodore Alfred K Hole - RNS Indy's Folly (CB)
Task Force Admiral Peter Rollins - RNS Waterloo (MKW)
Fleet Admiral Alberto Doyle - NKV Vesuvius (LFI)
> -----Original Message-----
Okay, I certainly must concede John C's point. There are many elements of
WH40K and you have to choose what you will save and what will go when you
convert to SG2.
It's a classic argument when two different game systems clash during
conversion; do a conversion which gives the performance or the style?
For example, 40K Space Marines can practically march into the guns of the
standard grunts of their universe, virtually immune to suppression, then
launch a devastating close assault. For example, if 100 Tactical Marines are
fighting 100 Tactical Guardsmen in close combat, the first round of close
combat sees 30 Guardsmen fall, then 4 Marines. A second round is probably
fought, and 28 Guardsmen fall, while the remainder claim 2 more Marines. At
this point, outnumbered 94 to 42, the Guardsmen should break and be rundown
and scattered.
If you simulate this using Veterans in power armour against Regulars, you get
results of 80 Guardsmen down, 15 Marines down, and 5 ties. The guardsmen will
almost certainly break and flee, leaving the game. Of the 15
Marines, I think it's 1/3 will merely be stunned and rejoin the battle.
But, unless you change the psychology rules (as John C did or as I have to run
this kind of battle), the Marines will be pinned by fire before they reach
close combat and be completely unable to launch the assault.
Some people like this result; it serves to illustrate a common anti-GW
bias
which is that GW's sci-fi in no way reflects a potential future or
reasonable military doctrine.
If you are tweaking the rules to allow and reward a charge into the guns, you
are instead saying (to paraphrase), "It's not war, but it's glorious". You're
willing to accept an unlikely or unique setting to play an interesting or fun
game.
I've tried both. A force which can march across the open table into the
enemy's guns without a thought for morale is fun once or twice, but there are
relatively few tactical decisions. Stuart Murray, when faced with such a
choice, went out of his way to be backward about tactical choices (at least
until he realized he might lose). It does become a touch boring, and falling
back on standard SG2 morale and suppression rules can force tougher tactical
choices on a player.
Please check out my conversions, I even did TO&E's for company sized units.
They play very well.
http://www.cvzoom.net/~jerrym
Jerry
[quoted original message omitted]
> I've tried a few of these conversions. Some observations:
Since Space Marine armor only provides great protection AND a sealed
environment but does NOT enhance Space Marines in Melee combat (in 40K)
,
why make it like SGII "Powered Armor"? Just make it tough armor. The
Terminators on the other hand....
> 2) Change the psychology. Stargrunt is a game decided by its model of
Yes and no... Marines can get "pinned" in 40K provided they get shot enough
(that silly stand and fire thing). I Just made Marines ignore suppression on
minor results but they get supressed on a major result, whether a casualty was
caused or not. If you read the OLD 40K Marine stuff, they never left a
"Brother Marine" behind. The "geneseed" was too valuable to leave on the
battlefield, Marines DO have medics, so I have to disagree with the "don't
carry wounded and not worried about losses"....they're are so FEW of them.
> 3) Looks for the loopholes and try to reasonably plug them. Marines,
By
> SG2 rules, they can't hit or target any airborne vehicle. In 40K, they
Why can't the Marine misslie weapon be a GMS/P? I works for me...and
since 40K doesn't even attempt air support or offboard arty. that shouldn't
limit you in a SG2 game within the 40K background...hell..spice it up!!
Please look and respond to my conversions at my web site. I've done
Eldar, Orks, Marines and Nids. (each with their own "special" rules) I'd be
willing to do the Imperial Guard and Chaos if someone wanted to lend me the
books for awhile (I'll send them back!!!...cause I hate 40K..the wretched
game...) I really just need them to get an idea of how they work and what
their organization might be like...like GW ever thought of something like
that.
The reason I allowed PA to enhance Marine close assaults is because it's such
reliable protection in close assaults in 40K, but no protection at all in SG2
assaults. It also balanced out the close assault casualties to 40K levels, and
Marine success in CC is a prerequisite for a "charge into the blazing guns"
army.
> At 12:26 AM -0400 22/5/99, Jerry wrote:
SNIP
> Please look and respond to my conversions at my web site. I've done
Does anyone know an alternative and functioning link?
Thanks
MarkS
All the way from Gallifrey...