Laserlight said: FWIW A few years ago I chanced to play a couple of games of
laser tag with about 60 guys on a course none of us had been to before. About
20 were SEALs. Of the 60, the one with the highest score was....an architect
with no military experience.
Tomb: And the local comic shop team beat our infantry unit at paintball. The
most deadly paintballers I ever met (to enemies and friends too) were a pair
of guys who worked at Kingston General Hospital but one of whom had been an
early Afghan war correspondent dodging Hinds with the
Mujahadeen. He'd been hit with an AK-47 once. He'd learned how to move
_very_ quietly in the woods and was a crack shot.
But I also know that the military people are in good shape and that
counts on larger capture-the-flag style paintball fields. And outside
> Tomb:
I think it is important to realise that paintball and laser tag and all these
games bear very little resemblence to reality. It is just a game! Training,
tactics etc really don't work with either game for the simple reason that the
rules are completely different, as are the
ranges/accuracies.
But physical fitness (and the ability to move quietly in the woods) is pretty
key.
I would reckon that running Tuffleyverse versions of a military exercise
(using miltary style laser equipment) would be the best way to work it, but
that's taking it waaaaaaaaaay to seriuosly for me!
> --- Richard Kirke <richardkirke@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But physical fitness (and the ability to move
Having a good grasp of fire and maneuver concepts and teamwork is also
helpful. There's a long story involved here about the 1 and only time I went
paintballing, but it basically works out to this point: Combat Arms types who
work out some sort of
plan and set up subunits (3-4 fire teams is what we
did) tend to mop the floor with people who work as
individuals and don't use proper fire-and-maneuver
techniques.
> I think it is important to realise that paintball and laser tag and all
> these games bear very little resemblence to reality. It is just a game!
> Training, tactics etc really don't work with either game for the simple
> reason that the rules are completely different, as are the
I beg to differ here. Having played paintball for years now, with well
over 200 days of playing, training, tactics, and etc make a _huge_
difference. They are not necessarily the same tactics you'll find on a modern
battle field, but that doesn't make them any less.
What you may be confusing here, if you haven't played enough to understand it,
is that normal infantry tactics and training are less effective than
they are on a real battlefield. I've personally handed a group of rangers
their ego's for several runs until they adapted and started using the same
tactics I did. They returned my ego to me, bruised as it was, by the end of
the day.
Small groups, not large. Fire and move, cover fire, volume fire, all work
well, but one good charge has made or broke a team before. Position is key.
Stealth is a beautiful thing for the old codgers.
Best team I ever saw or played against were local SWAT members, but that
was on a city and tree course (mock city, in the middle of a large forest.)
They were experienced paintballers, but less so than many in the tournament...
It was the training, and most importantly their teamwork that carried them
through.
As to accuracy... No, you don't hit at a 1000 yards, or with any sort of wind.
But a good friend of mine has a... How do you spell the camo that
snipers use, geelie? Guile? anyway, he made one, and it works _very_
well. The problem there is that most games only last 15-30 minutes,
which isn't enough time to truly move in that thingand properly use it. The
silencer was very helpful as well, until they outlawed them.:( (bloody
bastitches who converted them for real firearms use...) However, when we
play the occasional 24-48 hour game, he and a few others have been named
MVP's for good reason.
Laser Tag is something I only messed with a couple of times, and noted that
there's really no penalty for doing stupid things. So stupidity tends to rule.
Paintball, on the other hand, has the most important biological stupidity
penalty next to death... Pain. Those things _HURT_ at close range, and
they don't feel like a love tap from any other range.
> But physical fitness (and the ability to move quietly in the woods) is
Harumph. Size means more than physical fitness. 12 year old kids are the bane
of my existence. Good 12 year olds, who have played for a while, will kill you
dead. It's the smaller target, the ability to fit into cover that would block
my left foot, and the ability to be standing behind a bunker
that I have to crouch down behind allowing them to move easier and quicker
(they don't have to get their fat behinds up off the dirt). True, they're
usually quicker, more agile, more energy, more in shape, etc. But those
only make it hurt worse when they laugh at you in the kill box. Still, brains
and sneaky beat youth and fitness, even in this game.
Silent movement is a relative concept... The masks pretty much cover the ears
(for good reason, having had califower ear from a close range shot THROUGH the
mask) and impair your hearing. The masks also hamper your sight, impairing or
blocking peripheral, and fogging (Invest in an
anti-fog, double layer lens mask. And still expect fogging.). I've
been in the middle of a patch of leaves, in white jeans, in the fall, prone,
and blew away three good players before the ever knew I was there.
> Paintball, on the other hand, has the most important biological
is
> >pretty key.
I've got to jump in about here - I work at a paintball field and play on
a
Pro Team here in OZ - fitness is usefull for certain styles of play -
tactic
revolve around your capabilities and will determine the outcome - The
local Army, Navy, Airforce, Reserves and Military colleges train at our fields
on
a regular basis and the fitness has NO part in what they do - I have
seen their teams get smashed in short order by very unfit individuals who keep
changing their tactics - paintball does revlove heavily around movement
and communication. Firepower is a consideration, but as the pump vs semis
tourneys we hold and play in every month attest - communication and
steady nerve can beat strength, speed and agility.
> Harumph. Size means more than physical fitness. 12 year old kids are
12 year olds can't play here - but they still will lack the
co-ordination to
act as a team - again I say this is more important than those physical
characteristics.
True, they're
> usually quicker, more agile, more energy, more in shape, etc. But
Still,
> brains and sneaky beat youth and fitness, even in this game.
Yup - the sledging hurts morethan the paint - which IMHO does not hurt
as
much as some people make out..... :-)
One other point is luck - "better lucky than good" has won more
tourneys
than just skill - I admit to being a little lucky and I like to think
I'm
skilled, but I've been eliminated by lucky people on many occaisions -
paybacks just one game away ;-)
> At 03:23 PM 3/14/02 +1100, you wrote:
is
> > >pretty key.
Pro? *props* I've never made it past amateur and novice ranks.
I didn't mean to say fitness isn't an advantage, just not a primary one.
Communication... I knew I forgot one.:) Definitely a big one.
> 12 year olds can't play here - but they still will lack the
That's the minimum age here, and they need a parents signature. And, as
with any age player, the bad ones lack co-ordination, the good ones
develop it.
> True, they're
Still,
> > brains and sneaky beat youth and fitness, even in this game.
Close range hurts. There's an URL (don't have it right now) of a guy who took
a round <5 feet (crushing) in the groin. Lost one of two. He even
shows pictures. Firmed my religious choice on cups or not. And some friendly
advice for any lady who may want to play, wear one too.
> One other point is luck - "better lucky than good" has won more
Ah luck, that squirrelly mistress.
Rand.
> Brendan
> Pro? *props* I've never made it past amateur and novice ranks.
The difference in the APPL (AUST Painball Players League) between Amateur
and Pro is only divisional - they still play each other but are ranked
in
differnet categories and so finals are played pro vs pro and am vs am -
the pro teams are often more motivated, but I've played a number of "amateur"
teams that should have gone pro years ago :-)
> Close range hurts. There's an URL (don't have it right now) of a guy
Yup - proper protective gear is a must - I have double lined trousers
with
inserts that do the job well - love to see the url on the injury if you
can
find it? I still don't find that a paintball hurts all that much - I
might
be a little jaded after all this time - but I still love the game.
> Ah luck, that squirrelly mistress.
Yup - relied on it in several tournaments too - "Fortune favours the
Bold" -
if you don't try something risky in finals, then you often lose to someone
that did.
From: "Brendan Pratt" <bastard@oalink.com.au>
> Yup - the sledging hurts morethan the paint - which IMHO does not hurt
> The difference in the APPL (AUST Painball Players League) between
There's an expected skill and equipment difference between Am, Novice, and Pro
(IIRC the proper ordering), as well as different rules. Typically, Pro plays
against Pro, whereas Am and Nov end up often playing each other.
> > Close range hurts. There's an URL (don't have it right now) of a
WARNING: Read below, do not just click the link!!!!!!
URL: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jmsdeleon/OUCH!.html
WARNING: There are (close up) pictures of male anatomy on this URL. They're
also close ups of a severely damaged set of male anatomy from a direct shot
without cup to the groin... Warning served.
Having seen a >1 foot discharge to an unprotected neck, and experienced
several >3 foot and/or over-chrono'd shots, I can testify that they can
be very painful. Still, 99.99% of all shots I've taken, I'd have to agree with
you that they don't hurt much.
Rand.
> There's an expected skill and equipment difference between Am, Novice,
Typically, Pro
> plays against Pro, whereas Am and Nov end up often playing each other.
Due to the smaller size of the Australain League the teams all do play each
other and there is no Novice division at league level - however, there
are tournaments specifically oriented around entry level players that exclude
experienced teams or many players so that they can bulit match experience
without getting turned into pizzas....
> WARNING: Read below, do not just click the link!!!!!!
Yup - warning noted - the resolution doesn't really let you see the
detail of the damage he suffered but it does remind me of what happens when a
delicate organ gets struck at 300 fps - nasty.
> Having seen a >1 foot discharge to an unprotected neck, and
Uh-huh: I'm no hero and as I work on a field, I have experienced hits
while
the addrenalin isn't flowing - they usually score an expletive, butthe
worst hits are the ones that put you out of a league game that cost you the
tourney... :-)
> Due to the smaller size of the Australain League the teams all do play
Considering how much difference the right kit can make (Something about
18+
balls a second sucks... Don't know what it is yet), they restrict the rankings
by legal equipment as much as experience (though that counts too).
Interestingly enough, the Am and Pro levels are allowed comm equipment of
various types, but the middle Novices aren't. Usually. A ref once told me the
Am's tend to do more damage to themselves with the comms,
which is why they're allowed, and almost anything non-lethal and law
legal
are allowed in Pro. (I _HATE_ automatic weapons. At least, when I
don't have one. Or my grenade launcher. I love my airbursts.)
> Yup - warning noted - the resolution doesn't really let you see the
300 fps is kinda hot around here. Luckily for me *sarcasm* when I switched to
N2 my gun quit firing anything faster than 250 (on a good day). Yes, I've
tried a new spring. I did some airsmith work for the local fields for a while.
Fun stuff.
> Uh-huh: I'm no hero and as I work on a field, I have experienced hits
Worst injuries I've seen to date (not including the above URL which I haven't
witnessed) mainly exclude paintballs themselves. Except for the
very near miss to an eye due to an idiot removing his mask (burst alot of
blood vessels and did some internal damage that affected the guys sight)
the major injuries I've seen are several broken bones due to falls, a major
concussion and a lot of blood from an joker who ran straight down a steep hill
into a tree (Very cartoon like, without the cartoon characters innate ability
to bounce back uninjured), one near beheading from running into a rope for a
flag... Interesting story there. Extreme hats off to the Refs at Paintball
Atlanta. They saved the guy's eyes, if not life. It was a
final round tourney, the guy made a end game run for the flag, caught the rope
right across the windpipe, mask went one way, his legs went out from
under him, and he was already taking _major_ fire. 2 Refs jumped
litterally on top of him, the other four corner judges ran to the center,
hands up, taking a lot of shots, yelling cease fire. (Before anyone jumps
on the teams throats, in speedball, there's usually 100-200 shots in the
air at any one time. And every second, as many as 180 more go. It takes a
second or two to register the cease fire order) When they guy got up, we noted
over 30 distinguished hits, and several spots that were 2 or more hits
splotched together. He had none the moment before he hit the rope.
Worst I ever had was the newbie with an auto that didn't know when to quit
shooting. I took it on the back, but having only a camo shirt on, and he
being 6-7 feet away (a complete ambush...) it hurt alot.
Rand.
> Considering how much difference the right kit can make (Something
Angels, Diablos and Bushmasters have made a few peoples' lives miserable
-
they're good gear but finicky - I have used one in a tournanment about
three
weeks ago and really didn't like them - they break down easily and don't
suit a running play style due to their balance and weight - Automags for
me thanks...
Interestingly enough, the Am and Pro levels are allowed comm
> equipment of various types, but the middle Novices aren't. Usually.
A ref
> once told me the Am's tend to do more damage to themselves with the
Comms gear! - absolutely banned in all tourneys here - unless you yell -
thats it thanks very much. Communication is a major component of any
fighting forces armoury - I don't feel that the paintball experience is
enhanced by such additions.
> 300 fps is kinda hot around here. Luckily for me *sarcasm* when I
N2 is hard to find in OZ - not enough support, pretty much entirely HPA
-
many of the Pro team have compressors that they bring along and rent out for
tourney fills @ AU$10.00 per day (about USD $4.50) - 300 fps is the
legal
limit here and all tourney players tune their gear to about 295-297 fps
-
CO2 doesn't get used at all due to the wildly varying conditions that can
occur during a game - we call it the "evil gas" ;-)
> Worst injuries I've seen to date (not including the above URL which I
- I can relate to that - I crashed through a wooden barricade when the
sun
got in my eyes during a speedball final in Queensland last year - my
mask sailed away so I jammed my hands hard against my face rolled face down
and
waited for the refs to catch on - it only took a few seconds and I
didn't
take a single hit during the whole incident - good referees are worth
paying - we just find that there is an amazing variablity of ref quality
here - most are really shitty with a few top notch groups (Top Hat
Jokers
from Sydney play and ref - they're great). I started playing in 1984
when the sport was still in its' infancy and have experienced the evolution of
the game - just like any sport we need a regulatory body to ensure class
referees and good organisation of leagues - it'll take a bit of time
here due to the small population base down under.
> Worst I ever had was the newbie with an auto that didn't know when to
PMI-2 rifle at 3 inches to the upper lip (by a newbie) during the days
before face shileds - I love my JT spectra and wouldn't play without it
-
however special rules had to be introducted to prevent the hard core pros
from cutting thier masks to expose lips and cheeks - a pellet may not
break on these areas and they'd rather a fat lip than elimination.
Quoting Brendan Pratt <bastard@oalink.com.au>:
> > Worst injuries I've seen to date (not including the above URL which
You know, I've gone right off paintball at this point.
It's surprising how little it takes to injure people. Last easter I went
go-
karting. Proper place, all the protective kit on. During a
coming-together I
got what seemed like a rather light tap on the side of the knee from the
steering column. At the time I thought it would leave a nice brightly coloured
bruise, but it turned out (eventually) to be a fracture on the bottom of my
femour inside my knee that's so far taken a year to heal up, including
full-on
knee surgery. I'm STILL on crutches and the prediction from the medical people
is that while I should be walking again in a month or so {learning to walk:
very dull. It was more fun the first time}, it'll be well into summer before
I'm actually fully fixed.
I've kind of gone off dangerous sports with that. The version with IR "laser"
guns seems more appealing...
> paintball
I assume someone has tried making body armor? I'd think that a thin
polyethylene would suffice, and if done properly should be pretty flexible.
You could cut piece from a milk jug and make "scale
mail"--loan them out to new people until you get them hooked.
> At 8:51 AM -0500 3/15/02, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
It tends to restrict movement too much. Course some people do wear dirt bike
armor. I tend to operate as a sniper with a Ghillie suit.
As a target, I'm a big shambling pile of burlap/bushy brown stuff
when I run around. Mostly I creep and crawl. Short range games aren't much
help though. Its easier if I can go into hide when they aren't looking at me.
The nice thing about the Ghillie suit is shots are usually well padded and
don't hurt. The problem is that it is bloody hot and when I do take fire, my
face is the first thing to get a hit.
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:27:17 +0000 (GMT), katie@fysh.org wrote:
> I've kind of gone off dangerous sports with that. The version with IR
I haven't played paintball in years (though I enjoyed it at the time). The
last time I played laser tag was about three years ago. However, the worst
damage I ever took was in a laser tag game. It was an early one called Photon
and the maze wasn't set up very well. There were a couple of ramps, and they
had some enclosures which you had to step into. They gave you a helmet, which
was good, because in the dark I didn't know you had to step up and a tripped
over the step. I went head first into the barrier!
Speedball is a form of paintball. It's done at close range, very fast. It's
often done in indoor paintball places. It's not for the faint of heart. Most
paintball games the worst you get is being hit by a paintball. It stings if it
hits open skin, but there are ways of minimizing that. There are specific
paintball gloves. The masks now cover your head as well. You wear a bandana
around your neck for protection. I wore a cammo jacket over a cammo
t-shirt.
So far my worst injury was playing touch football. I broke a finger in 1999.
The joint healed, but scar tissue left it a little bit croooked (or, rather,
when I straighten the fingers of my hand, the broken one goes straight out
while the others have an upward bend to them). This was caused when the
football hit my finger flat on...
Hrm... I didn't mean to throw people off paintball. There are several good
reasons to play, and if it wasn't relatively safe, I wouldn't have played all
these years. As long as you play at a good field, you'll have little to no
problems. Or I should say, no more problems than you would
walking/jogging in
whatever terrain you're playing in. Like I said, the worst injuries I've seen
involved things other than paintballs.
Oh, and stay well away from speedball if you don't want to risk pain. I say
pain, not hurt. Alot of fun, good adrenalin high, but you'll know if you get
hit.
And finally, As with any activity one does, there are risks. You either accept
them as part of the deal, or don't accept and don't play.
> You know, I've gone right off paintball at this point.
Quoting Randall L Joiner <rljoiner@mindspring.com>:
> Hrm... I didn't mean to throw people off paintball.
I'm just a wimp. Various people keep trying to convince me to join them in
their sports, but frankly pitchlines like "What you do is get flown up this
mountainside in a helicopter and jump out with a surfboard tied to your feet.
If you land the right way up you get to race down the mountain on
/VIRGIN
SNOW/..." put me off.
Another chap has been trying to convince me to go diving with tales of
crawling
about in zero-visibility on the bottom of the solent occaisionally
whacking his head into something that might be a sister ship to the Mary Rose
but is more likely to be scrapped container...
> I assume someone has tried making body armor? I'd think that a thin
You could cut piece from a milk jug and make "scale mail"--loan them out
to new people until you get them hooked.
> [quoted text omitted]
Soft body armours are prohibited as they tend to prevent paintballs from
breaking - hard armours make them break more often and make movement a
little harder - I've been heavily involved for about 18 years now and
I've
seen a few attempts along these lines - the bottom line has always been
that
the game is a "contact" sport with a few bruises - it doesn't stop
several million people worldwide playing it each weekend as a social sport and
quite a lot as a competitive sport. Unfortunately the gamme is largely male
dominated with only a few notable exceptions of ladies/women playing
more
than once or twice - the game does involve a degree of rough and tumble
-
that's one of the reasons why I keep playing :-)
> It tends to restrict movement too much. Course some people do wear
Most of the natural terrain fields in Oz would cause you some discomfort as
it has done for anyone with a ghille suit here - the fields include an
enourmous number of spiky plat life that snags anything loose - even the
suit made with neoprene strips that a fellow called Jarrod tried here -
he made several types of body armour including a rigid shell suit that
actually
made it hurt more when he got hit - many players could relate that the
shots
that hurt the most are the ones that don't break - greater transfer of
nenergy and all that :-)
Apart fro that - ghille suits minimse breakage and are not permitted
here or at most US fields that I've worked at....
> At 10:14 AM +1100 3/16/02, Brendan Pratt wrote:
Its even a slight problem here.
> suit made with neoprene strips that a fellow called Jarrod tried here -
They do minimize breakage, but given the nature of their employment, its not
hard for someone to run up and stand over me and say surrender if they've hit
me. Besides, if I'm taking any kind of realistic fire, I'm likely screwed
regardless of a first break hit.
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
> >paintball
Some friends of mine bought surplus Vietnam-era body armour for this
purpose;)
Cheers,